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The Tailors' Thread: Fit Feedback and Alteration Suggestions

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by emptym, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    Did he also say that those same creases would reflect more light thus adding to the intentional contrasting effect of a dinner suit? Because that sounds just as reasonable yet untrue. Just wondering [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. ryoneo

    ryoneo Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the response.
     
  3. azumi

    azumi Well-Known Member

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    Hello OTC tailor, thank you for the pics.
    Here are some more pics I took yesterday. Could you please give me some advice before I take my blazer to a tailor who usually alter my clothing ( I wish I lived in the US so that I could bring it to you).

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Please figure out why there is a crease at the back (is it a "shelf" as you said?) and how to fix this problem?
    Thank you.
     
  4. katabatic

    katabatic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, about what I thought :). This is getting interesting.
     
  5. azumi

    azumi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this thread always is interesting. Is it right, man?
    When I wear a sweater outside my shirt, it seems that the crease on the bạck of my jacket is smoother, or vituarlly disappear. So I guess the reason is the back of my jacket is tight a little bit?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  6. TedBaxter

    TedBaxter Member

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    Hi everybody,

    first off: I really appreciate this thread and the time you invest for helping people with less knowledge.

    Blessed with few knowledge I had two MTM shirts tailored but am now a little bit unhappy about them. I would love to know whether it is me who is wrong with his opinion or whether it is the sellers that are telling me the "wrong things".

    The shirt you see on the pictures has been worn one day. That is how it would look on an afternoon at work.

    Which annoys me most is that the fabric is causing waves (I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker and I hope you still understand what I mean). It just does not fall smoothly as it should, instead the fabric stows up at the chest and waist area. The seller tells me, that the fabric such a good material it has to be washed a couple of times before it falls alright. I just can't believe that. I've chosen one of the best fabrics they had to offer and now I'm stuck with a shirt I have to wash I don't know how many times? Does anybody believe that this is true?

    The second thring is the wrinkling on the shoulder close to the neck/throat. When first trying on the shirt it had a tendency to have the "neck wrinke" so I asked them to alter the whole area and to remove very much of the surplus fabric that could be found on the back. What do you thing about the wrinkling in that area?

    Lastly, what do you think about the back, the amount of fabric still remaining, the amount of fabric at the waists and the overall shirt appearance? I asked for a reasonably slim fitted shirt, but the overall amount of fabric is just way too much, isn't it? I also think the buttons are a catastrophy but they didn't offer any others. Certainly, I will not have anything made there again but for now I have to make the best out of it and am grateful for any advise.

    Many thanks!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    Okay...
    If you look at your jacket from the side view, you can see how it's level to the ground at the bottom if not falling down where it's longer in the back than the front.
    That means that it was either designed that way, which I'm sure it wasn't, or the back balance is too long.
    It's still hard to see, but is that a ridge/roll of fabric up under the back of the collar? If it is, the fix for your jacket is a bit more extreme than the typical squaring of the shoulders.
    In part, the jacket's total fit around your waist down thru your hips is a little too tight. It may have to be let out a little mostly in the fore part of the jacket. Unfortunately, it's still too hard to tell from your pics so this part of the analysis may be more of a guess.
    I don't know why that ridge goes away when you wear a sweater except that it may change the way the jacket drapes down your back. Basically the back of the jacket is simply too long. You may not really understand why it can't just be shortened from the bottom, but it can't be. You'd just shorten the jacket and the ridge would still be there. It has almost everything to do with the way it's hanging from your shoulders. Put the same jacket on another person with a longer back and it wouldn't be as bad. The fix is shortening from the top...possibly requiring shifting the back part upwards....recutting the shoulder line and armscye portion and then letting out the bottom to compensate for the shift. This is not an alteration I've actually done before because I don't come across people that actually want to spend the money to get it done, but I can see it in my mind how to fix.

    @despos @jefferyd @a tailor: Am I correct with this analysis based on what I can see?
     
  8. dapperj

    dapperj Active Member

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    I'm no expert by ANY means but that shirt just looks big on you. I think the sleeves are too long and there is way too much fabric on the sides by the waist and by your armpits. I'm not sure if this is because of the darts but I don't think so.
     
  9. Despos

    Despos Well-Known Member

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    Can't see much from the lighting of the suit and twisting of the torso in the side view distorts the view
     
  10. coupas

    coupas Active Member

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    Sweden
    This is a very interesting thread and I would like your take on a recent purchase.

    I'ts a low cost suit purchased from TM Lewin, this is the suit. It's cheap and I took a chance as I usually can fit into OTC-suits quite good.
    http://www.tmlewin.co.uk/Cushing-Sl...d=Mens-Suits&prefn1=Suit_Fit&prefv1=Sackville


    I recieved it today and promptly unpacked it and put it on:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Would it even be possible for a tailor to save it, or should I return it?

    Thanks in advance for your take on this. I really appreciate getting second opinions from well versed guys like yourselfs.

    /Coupas
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  11. AdamWill

    AdamWill Well-Known Member

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    If someone smarter than me (any of the tailors...or anyone else really) says different, then believe them not me, but as I understand it: yes, I believe your seller. It doesn't matter how good quality a cotton shirt is - if it's straightforward cotton, even _really good_ cotton, it is going to shrink when you wash it. This is a fundamental property of cotton fabric. It doesn't mean the maker did anything wrong or cheaped out on the fabric. A tailored / MTM shirt *should* be made slightly 'oversize' in order to shrink to the correct dimensions when washed, or you'd never be able to wash it. So, wash it once or twice, then try it on again.

    edit: I'm not saying that shirt is okay or not, I'm not qualified to comment on that, and maybe one of the tailors could tell you if it's good or bad even without you washing it. Just saying that as I understand it, regular cotton shirts are always going to shrink a bit the first time or two they're washed.

    Do let me know if I'm wrong, OTC/Despos/etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  12. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Well-Known Member

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    What he was told isn't about shrinkage, it's about the drape of the fabric. Essentially that the fabric would relax after several washings, kind of like denim. This may or may not be true, but I think the issue with TedBaxter's shirt is that it isn't cut very well for his body.
     
  13. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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  14. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    Remind me not to post or reply any longer from my smart phone.
     
  15. Despos

    Despos Well-Known Member

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    Please don't post or reply from your smart phone anymore! :)

    Actually I enjoy reading your posts, you are very articulate and actually understand the conceptual side of things. Your contributions are bringing new perspective and life to the thread.
    Good job!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
    2 people like this.
  16. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    I replied earlier with my smart phone but the reply got mixed into what you wrote:

    The problem really has to do with who the mtm supplier is or uses. Mtm can be a blessing or a curse because if what is expected gets delivered then great a blessing. If you screw it up...and its easy to screw up....then you don't get what u expect and its worse than rtw. Maybe I should write an article on how to select a good mtm supplier since there are so many.
    Anyway, the shirt is too big on you. All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play. Shrinkage? Yes and no. Good tightly woven cotton will not shrink much. Maybe 3-5%? Also, did the darts come sewn in like that? There's no reason for darts on a mtm shirt and they don't even fix the fit. It looks like an oversized express shirt. It can be altered. I'd rip those darts out, take it in thru the sleeves and sides. When I dart those HUGE rtw shirts I dart them right next to the side seam so u can barely see them. Who wants to wear a woman's blouse?
    Ultimately the problem is a breakdown somewhere between the mtm reseller agent and the maker. Probably on behalf of the seller. My guess of course...
    [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif]Next time you go to an mtm supplier/agent, make sure they account for every element of your posture as possible. It can be so many things that ultimately affect the way the pattern is cut but if they're all accounted for as closely as possible along with accurate measurements then your garment may only be off SLIGHTLY at which point you identify the little areas that need to be fixed for the next round and evolve through the process. I believe jefferyd talked about this in his blog about how roughly only 5% of the population wearing tailored clothes has a near perfect fit and it's all because of proper ongoing collaboration/communication between client and cutter (seller in this case).
    Lastly, if you really want your clothes to fit the best, do some homework on your own to determine what type of posture you've got in every area of your body. Have someone take pics of you wearing a tighter tshirt and boxers in front back side relaxed poses. Study your body. What do you see? Take it to a GOOD tailor and ask him/her what is going on. If you know your posture and you go to an mtm supplier and they don't account for something, then you know they're either untrained, careless, or in a hurry for that commission check. An informed client has a better shot at preventing this than an uninformed client.
    [/FONT]
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    I'll remember this [​IMG]
    And thank you for the compliments. It's good to receive them and have confirmation that I'm on the right track.
     
  18. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    You're very full in the chest and blades with a somewhat hunched over posture. You need extra room in the chest and across your shoulder blades. Adjust for pitched shoulders isn't something a RTW maker will ever do. The crosswise wrinkles across the upper back, the shoulder divots, the pulling on the front button towards the chest, and the gaping of the fronts at the second button all indicate this. This is a fairly lethal combination to any suit if you're looking for a 'near perfect fit' esp RTW. You could return it and see if they offer a more "classic" fit and get it brought in. Don't think it would change the shoulder measurements but it'd give you a little more ease all over. Always better to get a suit with a little more wearing room brought in than one that is too slim.
     
  19. TedBaxter

    TedBaxter Member

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    Thank you very much!

    Those shirts were not cheap ($100 + each) and they took a lot of time for measuring etc., that is two reasons why I expected a well fitting shirt and am so dissappointed now. There were already 2 alterations made with several things I had to point out, one was to shorten the sleeves properly, but as you can see the sleeves are still too long. Of course it is about communication, but if one side doesn't listen, what's the use?

    Because I'm an amateur with regard to tailoring I expect a tailor to tell me what has to be done. With this tailor/seller I have to tell them what has to be done because they would never suggest anything, they would only do what I tell them (which is not much because I'm an amateur...) and from the first moment of trying on the shirts I had the feeling they don't want to put any more work into them and just get me out of the shop asap (and even worse the two suits they made! I'll post the pictures of those when I am in a really good mood so I'll write in a calm and objective way).

    I also asked them every time to take away more of the fabric because it's too much, on the pictures you see the results. They keep telling me I need the fabric in order to be able to move. With the information you are giving me I'll go there for a thrid (probably last) time and ask them to amend it again.

    I'm not sure what you mean with darts? I only know darts at trousers, do you mean the two "thingies" at the back? Yes they came that way...

    What do you think about the drape/draping of the shirt? Is that going to get better after several times of washing/cutting away more of the fabric? And what about the wrinkling on the shoulder? I also asked them to take care of that, you see the results on the pitcures...What can I tell them to do about it? "All of your posture elements that ideally dictate how the pattern should be cut may not have been taken into consideration completely which is where those odd wrinkles come into play.

    Not much I guess?

    Thanks again!
     
  20. OTCtailor

    OTCtailor Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with that kind of service out there. When altering a shirt, the only things that are really possible are taking them in thru the sides and/or adding darts ("thingies") in the back (Again, you usually see those in either ladies' blouses or altered RTW shirt. I've never seen an MTM shirt come back with shaped darts in the back that still doesn't fit.), shortening or sometimes lengthening the sleeve, and MAYBE altering the shoulder by narrowing. Because of the way a shirt is constructed with a yoke instead of simply a forepart and back part, it's very hard to change the cut of the shoulder line. Not to mention, a dress shirt has less flexibility for visual errors. There's a lot of little visual things you can hide in a suit. Hand sewing the collar on, for instance, in a suit is no big deal because it's hidden. In a shirt, you see any and every mistake. That makes them very labor intensive
    The wrinkles that are around your neck/shoulders are a result of your body posture and the cut of the shirt not matching. It's almost too much to describe.
    Have you ever put a tshirt on backwards and not noticed right away? In a few minutes or maybe hours, you feel yourself fighting the tshirt in the neck and shoulders. It just feels off. Well, it is off because it's backwards and it's not cut to fit the same way both ways. That's kinda like what you're dealing with. The shirt isn't exactly cut for your posture. Take this with a grain of salt, but I'm guessing it may have even been made for someone else. The darts are a huge giveaway there. There is simply no functional reason to have them there. They're visually unappealing and the fit is still wildly drapey in the back.
    Combine that with the tailor/seller's refusal to listen to you or suggest things, I can understand your frustration. There is definitely a middle ground that any professional in this field should strive to hit. Not too suggestive, not too passive letting the client make all the uninformed decisions. It's not always easy. However, FIT IS FIT. Fit isn't exactly as flexible as style. Granted, there are styles of fit, but "doesn't fit" is not a fit style.
    So what do you do from here? Again, not an easy thing to advise on.
    ..not always so cut and dry.
    If they're anything like my business, they've got no return policies and additional alterations are simply eating away at their bottom line. The fact is, in this business, you either get it right the first time or you lose money. I've had my fair share of mistakes that I've had to correct and I've eaten my profit on a few occasions, but thankfully nothing so extreme that I forever lost clients. I'm a customer-centric business owner. I'd do it this way no matter what kindof business I own. Sounds like you're dealing with someone who may operate a little differently, to put it nicely.

    More fabric can come out of the back and waist area, whether it be thru the sides or by increasing those darts. The sleeve fit can be improved, too. In width and in length.They're not hard alterations, but do they want to do the work??? These are "hard economic times" and some business owners are very steadfast on maintaining profit.
    Will the fabric change as you get them cleaned? Yes, but not a lot if it's good cotton. You should have enough shirts that dry cleaning isn't a constant thing, anyway.
    Fixing the neck and shoulder areas that are causing you fit problems are definitely more complicated and my guess is not possible with that tailor.

    Robert Kiyosaki tells people that the #1 key to increasing their wealth is to increase their financial education.
    In the same regard, the #1 key to increasing quality of fit/style in your wardrobe is to increase your clothing education.
    I think that's the fundamental goal of this forum.
     

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