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The StyleForum Working Hierarchical Suit Quality List (SFWHSQL!)

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Cognacad, Sep 20, 2009.

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  1. furo

    furo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
    - Kiton
    - Oxxford
    - Despos
    - Brioni
    - Cesare Attolini Napoli
    - Borrelli

    Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
    - Sartoria Partenopea
    - RLPL
    - Sartoria Attolini Napoli
    - Isaia
    - Caruso Sartoria Parma
    - Pal Zileri Sartoriale
    - Ravazzolo?
    - Zegna Couture

    Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
    - Caruso
    - Canali
    - Corneliani
    - Hickey Freeman Mainline
    - Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
    - Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
    - Ermenegildo Zegna
    - RLBL


    Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
    - Cantarelli
    - Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
    - Brooks Brothers 1818
    - Paul Smith
    - H. Freemann
    - Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
    - Samuelsohn
    - Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

    Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
    - Hugo Boss
    - Banana Republic Monogram
    - Lauren Ralph Lauren-



    Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
    - H&M
    - Banana Republic
    - Calvin Klein
    - Tasso Elba
    - Nautica

    **Bumped RLBL up one notch; I don't know how it can be ranked in line with stuff that is all fused and half canvas.

    There should also be a minimal qualifier to make into the top 2-3 notches such as canvassing being full. And I second the notion that the entire list should be only RTW or MTM at a minimum to exclude bespoke Saville Row stuff, et al
     
  2. bigbris1

    bigbris1 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read thru all of this crap but this list is BS in that posters should be required to post their experience behind the brands they ranked. I think, many of these are just folks shuffling brands they either know from SF or else. For instance, those of you who ranked Samuelsohn as good or satisfactory, WTF is wrong with you??

    Remember, the OP listed value, i.e. bang for the buck, as part of the quotient here.
     
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

    I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.

    Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.
     
  4. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Well-Known Member

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    Irvine
    This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

    I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.
    Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.


    i could understand if due to pure fabrics but i agree as well, it should be on par with the upper echelon
     
  5. Sanddog

    Sanddog Well-Known Member

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    This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

    I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.

    Also, Despos is an anomaly. If you include bespoke, you'll only further confuse the list. Oxxford, Kiton, and the like, should be below Despos.


    i could understand if due to pure fabrics but i agree as well, it should be on par with the upper echelon

    As a relative newbie to this stuff who has spent a lot of time searching through the archives, I see this thread as having potentially significant value for people like me *if* veterans like you two would be generous enough to actually modify the list itself.

    Below is the list restated, with modifications to reflect your comments; I am *not* inserting my personal opinion. If I've misunderstood, please correct me. I, for one, would be grateful if you guys would take a harder look at the list and give it a thorough overall, or even start over in a new thread.

    For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to try to factor in "value for money" because prices vary. Easier to rank makers / lines by quality and then let people comparison shop on price themselves. (E.g., if I see a suit in a superior category priced the same as one in a lower tier, then I know I'm looking at a bargain...)

    The list:
    Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
    - Kiton
    - Oxxford
    - Brioni
    - Cesare Attolini Napoli
    - Borrelli
    - RLPL

    Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
    - Sartoria Partenopea

    - Sartoria Attolini Napoli
    - Isaia
    - Caruso Sartoria Parma
    - Pal Zileri Sartoriale
    - Ravazzolo?
    - Zegna Couture

    Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
    - Caruso
    - Canali
    - Corneliani
    - Hickey Freeman Mainline
    - Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
    - Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
    - Ermenegildo Zegna
    - Samuelsohn


    Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
    - Cantarelli
    - Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
    - Brooks Brothers 1818
    - Paul Smith
    - H. Freemann
    - Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
    - RLBL
    - Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

    Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
    - Hugo Boss
    - Banana Republic Monogram
    - Lauren Ralph Lauren-



    Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
    - H&M
    - Banana Republic
    - Calvin Klein
    - Tasso Elba
    - Nautica


    Again -- just trying to incorporate the opinions stated in this thread by guys we all know to be knowledgeable. Would love it Foo, bigbris, vox, manton, despos, iammatt, etc. would take a hard look at this list, for the benefit of those of us who are still learning.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. bigbris1

    bigbris1 Well-Known Member

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    Opulence
    Can we also take into consideration the price point some of these suits can be had for, in lieu of their MSRP? I wouldn't pay $500 for a LRL suit but they can be bought brand new for ~$150 all day long. That should be the real price we use to determine this list.
     
  7. furo

    furo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    This list is the reason why the other forums make fun of us.

    I don't see how RLBL can be at the same level as Golden Fleece, or why RLPL is below Kiton/Oxxford/Brioni.


    Why can't RLBL be at the same level? You mention RLPL. Many of those suits are made by Caruso, who made a lot of Black Fleece as well as RLBL. So why would RLPL necessarily be above those other brands? Is there something I'm missing?

    I can understand if we are breaking it down to years of models and even seasons, since Black Fleece has undergone a lot of change (i.e. from made in Italy to the USA) as well as others. But what necessarily makes RLBL inferior or superior to BB Golden Fleece?

    I'd rank BB Black Fleece from 2007 above Golden Fleece (in terms of quality) but I can only bump one notch per day :wink:
     
  8. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    Jan 18, 2007
    Also, Despos is an anomaly.

    Wise words.


    - B
     
  9. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the most useful threads on this forum. Please Stickify!!

    Agreed.

    I am committing this whole list to memory, and even now, I am making up little flashcards to help the memorization process.


    - B
     
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Feb 11, 2007
    Why can't RLBL be at the same level? You mention RLPL. Many of those suits are made by Caruso, who made a lot of Black Fleece as well as RLBL. So why would RLPL necessarily be above those other brands? Is there something I'm missing?

    I can understand if we are breaking it down to years of models and even seasons, since Black Fleece has undergone a lot of change (i.e. from made in Italy to the USA) as well as others. But what necessarily makes RLBL inferior or superior to BB Golden Fleece?

    I'd rank BB Black Fleece from 2007 above Golden Fleece (in terms of quality) but I can only bump one notch per day :wink:


    Maybe I have my facts wrong, but I was under the impression that RLPL suits are made by Santandrea (formerly St. Andrews), mostly if not exclusively. From what I've seen and heard, Santandrea suits are every bit as nice as Oxxford and Kiton.

    I am not familiar with the maker of RLBL suits, but the quality doesn't approach what I've seen from the makers mentioned above. I don't remember seeing any hand-stitching in the RLBL suits I've looked at.

    I know little to nothing about Black Fleece suits. Did I say something about them?
     
  11. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    Can we also take into consideration the price point some of these suits can be had for, in lieu of their MSRP?

    Good ploy, but you are not getting my DesposDiscountâ„¢.

    What is really needed is a scatter chart, something that looks like this...

    [​IMG]

    ...or maybe this:

    [​IMG]

    ...or even better, something 3D. In fact, with the 3D plotting and sufficient data points, the face (or bust, if you will) of tailored clothing will emerge.

    Guess what it looks like.


    - B
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    ^^^

    FAIL. You did not account for AndyPoints.
     
  13. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Tombstone
    Why can't RLBL be at the same level?

    Shh. My favorite part of this thread is the lack of facts and quantification, coupled with the the pleasantly ambiguous concept of "quality." With such open parameters, the possibilities are endless, and that's charming.

    My second favorite part is how the list is shaping up along the usual "retail price/SF prestige" lines. Though there is, admittedly, some scrapping near the bottom. The Lauren suits are better than the Nautica how? I think the Andyites will be interested in our findings.
     
  14. Georgetown

    Georgetown Active Member

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    36
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    Apr 17, 2009
    Excellent thread.

    I, for one, would like to see Luciano Barbera placed on the list. The pieces i have are lovely, and beautifully made, but I defer to my more knowledgeable colleagues to rank it relative to others. [​IMG]

    a.
     
  15. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Well-Known Member

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    Irvine
    Why can't RLBL be at the same level? You mention RLPL. Many of those suits are made by Caruso, who made a lot of Black Fleece as well as RLBL. So why would RLPL necessarily be above those other brands? Is there something I'm missing?

    I can understand if we are breaking it down to years of models and even seasons, since Black Fleece has undergone a lot of change (i.e. from made in Italy to the USA) as well as others. But what necessarily makes RLBL inferior or superior to BB Golden Fleece?

    I'd rank BB Black Fleece from 2007 above Golden Fleece (in terms of quality) but I can only bump one notch per day :wink:


    there is also the same maker manufacturing it at different quality levels. belvest makes for prada but makes a better product for itself under its own name.

    i mention rlpl with rlpl st. andrews. to differentiate it from the caruso one. and yes, the caruso rlpl is made less qualitatively than the st andrews. st andrews rlpl from what i handled is superlative.
     
  16. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    I, for one, would like to see Luciano Barbera placed on the list.

    Yes, please him next to Despos and let's see the two wrestle.

    I'm betting on Despos...he's got this secret move known as the "kimchee."


    - B
     
  17. David Reeves

    David Reeves Well-Known Member

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    Feb 16, 2009
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    New York
    Yes, please him next to Despos and let's see the two wrestle.

    I'm betting on Despos...he's got this secret move known as the "kimchee."


    - B


    Dont make me do Hadouken!
     
  18. Bellum

    Bellum Well-Known Member

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    Jan 22, 2009
    I suspect Savile Row's Paul Jheeta has been left off the list because it tops out at Excellent [*****].

    I am pleased to add

    Nonpareil [***** 1/2] Savile Row's Paul Jheeta
     
  19. Corniche

    Corniche Well-Known Member

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    Aug 24, 2009
    Canali has been upgraded in design this year, only good???


    In bad or terrible I go for the glued crappola Boss.[​IMG]

    I also dislike some Zegna, too baggy and expensive for quality. I love Canali.
     
  20. Bounder

    Bounder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,247
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    The list:
    Excellent [*****] (i.e. Suits made this well are far and few between, if money is no object your closet would be full of these. If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more. This category should be kept to only a few items)
    - Kiton
    - Oxxford
    - Brioni
    - Cesare Attolini Napoli
    - Borrelli
    - RLPL

    Very Good [****] (i.e. Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category or prices could be raised significantly and would still be good value).
    - Sartoria Partenopea
    - Sartoria Attolini Napoli
    - Isaia
    - Caruso Sartoria Parma
    - Pal Zileri Sartoriale
    - Ravazzolo
    - Steve Harvey
    - Zegna Couture

    Good [***] (i.e. Quality is superior to most suits or the value of these suits is above average).
    - Caruso
    - Canali
    - Corneliani
    - Hickey Freeman Mainline
    - Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
    - Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
    - Ermenegildo Zegna
    - Samuelsohn


    Satisfactory [**] (i.e. The "Average" Brands. Quality is acceptable, and the price matches it).
    - Cantarelli
    - Boglioli (might not be not in terms of construction, but def for cut and fabric)
    - Brooks Brothers 1818
    - Paul Smith
    - H. Freemann
    - Hickey Freeman LTD (Half Canvas)
    - RLBL
    - Z-Zegna (sometimes satisfactory sometimes mediocre)

    Mediocre[*] (i.e. Suits that should usually be avoided. Quality leaves much to be desired or prices are usually higher than they should be for such a suit).
    - Hugo Boss
    - Banana Republic Monogram
    - Lauren Ralph Lauren-



    Bad [ ](i.e. Don't buy. Quality is overall bad, or quality is nowhere near the price asked for).
    - H&M
    - Banana Republic
    - Calvin Klein
    - Tasso Elba
    - Nautica

    This list is a big fail on several levels, and not the least for trying to factor in value for money, especially on SF. First, how many posters here ever pay full retail? Hell, I seem to recall a thread a while ago about whether it was poor form to try and squeeze a discount out of your SR tailor. If you are buying at STP prices, Corneliani moves well up into the "Very Good" category.

    By the same token, Kiton makes a beautiful suit but ought to be bringing up the rear of the "Bad" category. Kiton is the worst value for money I have ever seen in a suit.

    Does Kiton really meet this criterion? "If money is a factor then these suits could sell for much, much more." Would anyone ever say, "Gosh, I could get 2 or 3 bespoke Rubinacci or Henry Poole for the same price but this lovely RTW Kiton is just to die for!"
     

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