1. Welcome to the new Styleforum!

    We hope you’re as excited as we are to hang out in the new place. There are more new features that we’ll announce in the near future, but for now we hope you’ll enjoy the new site.

    We are currently fine-tuning the forum for your browsing pleasure, so bear with any lingering dust as we work to make Styleforum even more awesome than it was.

    Oh, and don’t forget to head over to the Styleforum Journal, because we’re giving away two pairs of Carmina shoes to celebrate our move!

    Please address any questions about using the new forum to support@styleforum.net

    Cheers,

    The Styleforum Team

    Dismiss Notice

The State of Black Tie: Your Observations

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Nov 22, 2011.

Tags:
  1. Bounder

    Bounder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,247
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    

    Yes. you still need a cummerbund or a vest. No, the cummerbund does not have to be the same color as the pants. In fact, theoretically, it should match the tuxedo facings (the lapels) as should the tie and will typically be satin or, more rarely, grosgrain. There are such things as midnight blue cummerbunds but they are not strictly necessary for a midnight blue DJ. They may arguably be better, assuming the facings are also midnight blue. Since you are wearing a black tie, wear a black cummerbund as well. This is especially true while you are wearing a white DJ.

    The fact that you are wearing a DJ for a tropical wedding is slightly disturbing as these wedding are typically much more casual. This wedding isn't happening during the day or on the beach is it?
     
  2. palk

    palk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    White tie during the day? That would indeed be quite the event. [​IMG]
     
  3. culverwood

    culverwood Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,854
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Location:
    London
    Academic white tie is common in Scandinavia and Finland for PhD ceremonies. If you are awarded a Nobel prize be prepared to wear white tie too.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. RaggedyDandy

    RaggedyDandy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    120
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Location:
    Toronto
    Both excellent occasions for that level formality, IMO.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    

    White tie is the utmost formalwear for men. The so called evening tailcoat is equally known as dress coat and has been used for mornings most formal events since its birth. It is the prescribed dress code for formal "private" meeting with the Pope (Pope Francis seems to have relaxed etiquette as so far noone has worn it since his election), but with a black waistcoat. It is still also worn in morning weddings in Sweden and was worn in Italian aristocratic weddings until the WW2, as it is an accepted church dress code (black tie should not be worn in a Church).
    Traditional accademic dress in UK also prescribe white tie under the robe, however I do not believe , it does the tailcoat.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  6. palk

    palk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    91
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    I'm well aware; it simply seems odd to me that they would wear white tie instead of morning dress. Sator put it best in this thread on wedding attire: "evening dress ... is associated with partying outrageously, drinking and dancing. That's why Dorian Gray prowled the diabolic London night-life in full dress. Dinner suits too are meant to be for dinner. To show up ... dressed to dine and party wildly is less than respectful. You might as well show up drunk with a bottle of champagne under your arm while munching an appetiser:"
    [​IMG]
     
  7. culverwood

    culverwood Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,854
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Location:
    London
    It just goes to show Sator does not know everything.
     
  8. BackInTheJox

    BackInTheJox Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,904
    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    He probably knew how to spell "utmost", at least.
     
  9. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    
    Thanks for the correction, as English is not my first language.

    However, it does not change the fact that White Tie is not Dinner/Festive clothing only as Black Tie definitely is, (and for this Black tie should not have a place at actual Wedding Ceremonies I may add) and this is a wider shared view across many Old World (read Europe) countries other then the UK.
     
  10. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  11. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,057
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    I believe what you are demonstrating is the regional bias between the English and other Europeans. The English, and perhaps their prior colonies, prefer the morning coat for day weddings. I hear day coats in the UK are still quite common.
     
  12. archibaldleach

    archibaldleach Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,222
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    

    Appreciate your perspective, but think calling the views on white tie that you disagree with an "internet myth" is not right in this case. Etiquette and what is appropriate varies by culture, as you well know (I believe you have argued that black tie should not be worn in churches, a view completely alien in the U.S. to my knowledge, apologies if I am confusing you with another). In the U.S. (I cannot speak for other parts of the world), black tie and white tie have long been seen as something that is to be worn after 6:00PM (perhaps with slightly latitude for an evening event that starts slightly before 6:00PM), whereas a morning coat would be worn for a daytime event for which a suit is too casual (the semi-formal stroller basically being dead in the U.S.).

    Of course, the fact that a rule exists does not mean everyone knows about it or follows it. You see plenty of black tie in the afternoon the U.S. that I'd argue is inappropriate.
     
  13. poorsod

    poorsod Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,057
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    I believe marcoalondra is calling into question the stated rules (eg by Sator) as "universally acknowledged truth" whereas in fact there is much regional variation.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    

    Yes, as my initial response was to address a negative comment to White Tie being worn at a morning event (PhD ceremony) in Amsterdam...

    (Edit to add: also to clarify, the internet myth I am addressing is that White tie is ONLY appropriate for parting and evening formal event. Is the ONLY part that is a myth as the definition of Full Dress and my further explanation below demonstrate, but obviously I do agree that it is indeed appropriate dress code for evening formal events)

    More importantly, as the later arguement called up as reference Sator and late 1800's early 1900's illustration of white tie as evening dress and/or party dress only, needed answering.

    So to clarify once more, white tie dress code is known in British English correctly as Full Dress, which in reality indicate it as appropriate to be worn with stash and decorations.

    Soon after its birth and to this day, it is consider the utmost form of formal dress for men in existence, morning or evening, and so to be used for the utmost formal occasion, in etiquette books from all over the world before WW2.

    It was and still is, a dress code more formal than a morning coat. However the continuos loss of formality (worldwide) and importance of etiquette for all but the most prestigious events, has meant that the morning coat has become the more common formal attire choice for morning weddings, even in other countries or Europe (BTW I do live in the UK and I do know how common is to wear Morning coat here still, in fact worn one on Saturday). However, most etiquette expert would agree that if you were aristocratic and organising a wedding for let say 500 + guests, Full Dress/white tie would be well an option, in the UK as in the rest of Europe.

    With regards to Black Tie being accepted in USA for weddings ceremony in churches, even worst no matter the time, well that has been an unfortunate trend that has gained in popularity over the last 60 years, and that @Manton 's now disappeared great thread had tried to address.

    Finally to further prove the point to guys the other side of the pond:

    A couple of illustrations of US president George Cleveland's White House wedding in 1886:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Prince Michael of Kent's (British Royal Family) own wedding in 1978 (albeit in Vienna):
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
  15. greger

    greger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,470
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Location:
    WA
    Sator hasn't been around long enough. One of the words he tripped over was sack. Sack Coat has a number of different definitions. How some countries used that word other countries might not be aware of or interested. There were so many nuances that were never written down, so, how can later people understand? If he came back now, he'd do better. And like all of us, we can't speak for how people thought about clothes that's before our time. For me, the late fifties on I can speak of. Having watched some who came later talking about clothes before their time some of the people they learned from weren't honest. And then there are those who want you to wear what they want you to wear, sharks.
     
  16. Sam H

    Sam H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    117
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Just got back from my first black tie event! Was exciting. Just turned into typical partying anyway except in a tuxedo. Anyway, I wore very traditional clothes: peak lapel grosgrain trim ventless one button Mr Ned tuxedo, CEGO marcella bib/collar/cuff shirt with MOP studs, the patent/grosgrain strap shoes I posted above, silk socks, white suspenders, barathea silk bowtie/cummerbund. All in all very fun. Now I need to find more events to go to :D
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. jakejake

    jakejake Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    

    Hi, Thanks for your advice.

    The wedding is at night in an air conditioned restaurant.
     
  18. Andy57

    Andy57 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,219
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Location:
    San Jose, California
    Make your own events. Going out to dinner at an upscale place? Wear your dinner jacket. Enjoy very attentive service.
     
  19. Bounder

    Bounder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,247
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009

    There is a pretty tangled set of currents here.

    First, it is true that in the UK, no one ever wore black tie in churches. But that is not because there was a ban on wearing black tie in churches. Rather, it is because no appropriate event ever took place in a church.

    Due to a quirk in English law -- remember, in England, you never ask "why?", you ask "since when?" -- you can only be legally married during daylight hours. So no one, by definition, would ever wear black tie to a wedding. Morning wear is, however, appropriate at weddings, and it is very common at weddings in the UK, much more common, in fact that black tie is at American weddings.

    Since American has no such rule prohibiting evening weddings, black tie is perfectly appropriate, even if the wedding is in church, as once upon a time, was pretty much a given. That is, it is appropriate if it is an evening wedding.

    But what about a wedding during the day? Suppose the wedding is at 5 p.m. in a church with a reception to follow at 7? Technically -- or, rather, traditionally -- this might be OK during the winter but completely inappropriate in June. In the modern world, however, we need to cut people a little slack. So the modern "rule" is that if you have a late afternoon wedding with an evening reception then black tie is perfectly appropriate, goddamn it, because why in the hell would anyone want to discourage someone from holding a proper black tie wedding given that the average wedding includes people wearing flip-flops and jorts?
     
    2 people like this.
  20. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,128
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    

    I think you are tangling it even more. We are not talking about British Law or bans on dress.

    We are talking about reference rules for formal men dress code. Since the birth of etiquette in Rinascimental Italy we have had a set of rules / reference of good manner and dress code to use in presence of others, for formal gathering/meeting and events and other important times in one life. The evolution of dress codes and society over the centuries also resulted in updating to those reference and, as such, in no modern European etiquette reference publication, is black tie called for for the actual Wedding ceremony (civil or religious weddings at that). Debrett's, which is considered the most reliable British reference, suggest that in the eventuality of evening weddings, white tie could be considered. Therefore the whole comments about your theory on UK weddings not considering black tie can be safely shelved (with a very British "with all due respect").
    Black tie is simply not appropriate as it was conceived as a partying dress code since its inception and was never considered formal to start with, and this should apply to US, UK or any other part of the world. Wear a proper three piece suit for the ceremony and change into black tie for eating, drinking and dancing, or if you really want to wear something appropriate at 5pm as later at the reception, then go full bang for Full Dress, that as I have amply demonstrated above, is equally appropriate at morning And evenings events (peraphs, and even more formally, one could use the black waistcoat in the morning and change to white Marcella for the evening).
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2016
    1 person likes this.

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by