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The sport coat

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by AvariceBespoke, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. Dewey

    Dewey Well-Known Member

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    gnatty, sorry if you took offense at my "barking," as FNB so kindly characterizes it. all i can say is, you brought it up. no one walked up to you and rudely said your navy pants were so wrong. in the future i will know better than to answer such questions. i did not realize it was a rhetorical question & just an opportunity to praise your attire in an elegant manner. it can be hard to tell when posters are seriously curious, and when posters are fishing for compliments.
     
  2. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Well-Known Member

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    I am very glad you said this.
    Well, there is a big difference between what I would wear myself, what I think looks good on somebody else, and what I think is actually horrible. Gnatty looks fine wearing blue pants. Some people look good wearing black suits. That doesn't mean I would wear them myself. Other things, like Tom Ford bathing suits, and some assorted sharpie clothing, just look bad to me, but it isn't like I would ever tell somebody on the street that they looked like shit, or that what they were wearing was wrong.
     
  3. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is a big difference between what I would wear myself, what I think looks good on somebody else, and what I think is actually horrible. Gnatty looks fine wearing blue pants. Some people look good wearing black suits. That doesn't mean I would wear them myself. Other things, like Tom Ford bathing suits, and some assorted sharpie clothing, just look bad to me, but it isn't like I would ever tell somebody on the street that they looked like shit, or that what they were wearing was wrong.
    Do you know someone who tells people in real life that they're doing things wrong with regards to clothing? With regards to modernity, I think the first step is to admit that such a look exists, that it is recognized collectively and has appeal. After that, you might make a decision about the location, the place, the crowd, the person, the purpose. The question remains, can you outline a modern outfit for someone without defacing them because of any contempt you might have for the look or the lifestyle? I believe this type of objectivity can enhance your own style. It's a form of sartorial enlightenment.
     
  4. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    what about something from Harrison's moon beam book? these are designed a citifide sports coatings, great hand easy to tailor and not as glossy as their cashmere stuff and as rustic as real tweeds!
    That's right. They are working on a warmer weather version "SunBeam" A lot of the cloth Harrisons make falls under "contemporary" This covers quite a bit of ground and yet does not cover everything. Other merchants like Holland and Sherry, Dormeuil and Scabal have their own contributions. Remember that just because something is modern doesnt mean it cant be wrong for a purpose, person or event; doesnt mean it cant be tasteless. But the same applies for the traditional stuff, just because it's traditional doesnt mean it cant be wrong for a specific purpose or tasteless. There's no safety in applying a formula, there is only continuing to contemplate style. Ohm...
     
  5. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    what about something from Harrison's moon beam book?

    these are designed a citifide sports coatings, great hand easy to tailor and not as glossy as their cashmere stuff and as rustic as real tweeds!


    I think someone mentioned this above. They're nice, but perhaps a bit restrained compared to some of the vintage stuff (cf. some of Matt's Rubinaccis made from stuff pulled from the vaults). I was very surprised recently to see a Borrelli sportcoat book comprised entirely of 16 oz English cloths. Sadly, I think it's only for their own MTM program, but it's worth a look through just to see some of the really nice stuff in there.

    --Andre
     
  6. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Well-Known Member

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    Do you know someone who tells people in real life that they're doing things wrong with regards to clothing? With regards to modernity, I think the first step is to admit that such a look exists, that it is recognized collectively and has appeal. After that, you might make a decision about the location, the place, the crowd, the person, the purpose. The question remains, can you outline a modern outfit for someone without defacing them because of any contempt you might have for the look or the lifestyle? I believe this type of objectivity can enhance your own style. It's a form of sartorial enlightenment.
    Sure, but I tend to think that a modern outfit looks better a la Fuuma than it does when it is a modernization of very classic elements. Nevertheless, that is why I suggested the Harrison's millionaire book, because I think that they are extremely successful at modernizing classic patterns, and that they do a lot in that book with blues and grays. I think the "Wilkes Bashford" look fo muted dark colors on top and bottom works out pretty well, and can be done with either a standard dress shirt worn open, or with a tie, or with a cashmere/silk turtleneck. I actually like the way Tom Ford casual looks as well, though it can be tricky to pull off. Really, the best modern classic, at least to me, has to have a slightly sleazy edge, because if it does not, it looks like business casual, which is generally a very bad look.
     
  7. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    If any of you think that you look "modern" in your bespoke tailored clothes, you're nuts, unless you are purposefully having your tailor imitate a RTW look or elements promoted or marketed by a current RTW mass market maker.

    And please...can we banish the word "hip" back to 1948 when it was actually a hip term?

    If you want to look modern, the most successful route is to buy RTW from a contemporary designer. It's not hard to do, Tom Ford notwithstanding.

    The gulf between fit and success in achieving modernity is going to be far narrower with a contemporary RTW designer than the gulf between fit and success from a bespoke tailor who knows what he is doing. The latter is like asking Titian to do an all-white painting (well, shades of white...)

    There is absolutely no way to escape the retro element of tailored bespoke clothing...and why would you want to? I don't think compromise is terribly stylish no matter how many middle-aged women (i.e., 22+) might stroke your coatsleeves.

    The last heyday of bespoke clothing leading the charge of modernity was the West End peacock revolution.

    If you want to look modern, or have a modern look, there are many sources to satsify this. The one source that will not is what we commonly think of as a bespoke tailor.


    - B
     
  8. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    I think there are as many definitions of modern as posters on this thread. By modern, what do we mean exactly? If I had to guess what OP wants, it sounds more like fashionable and contemporary than anything else.

    --Andre
     
  9. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    I think there are as many definitions of modern as posters on this thread. By modern, what do we mean exactly? If I had to guess what OP wants, it sounds more like fashionable and contemporary than anything else. --Andre
    This is an unfortunate, recurring theme with some. When they feel their past choices or tenets challenged, they say "Why dont we just throw it all away?". How else would someone interpret this stubborn refusal to analyze when on this very forum some will spill an infinite amount of ink over the difference between the darkest charcoal wool and "black" because of its color beauty and concrete social signals. One would think such broad brush strokes denying the myriad gradations of "modernity" impossible. No one is suggesting that traditional clothes can't be every bit as beautiful as "modern" ones. Likewise, no one is suggesting that "modern" clothes have to be part of a sci-fi film or some wild "Zoolander" party. Some people love music but are tone deaf. I accept that. Problems arise only when the tone def want to conduct.
     
  10. winston

    winston Well-Known Member

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    There was a time when a given crowd might think you were a down and outer
    but things are changing. I think if Thom Browne isnt the only impetus for it, his idea of combining odd shades of the same color between jacket and pants are catching on as part of the modern era. I think you might actually wear navy pants now. The only people you are going to offend are:

    1. People who have worked in mens clothing for a long time.
    2. Maybe some crusty holdovers
    3. People who read clothes books from the past and apply the rules today without taking into account why they were originally enforced or how the landscape has changed.


    In other words, people with a thorough knowledge of the rulebook but zero imagination or genuine style sense..
    Navy pants are fine.

    Tweed that looks the least out of place in the city (without you having to be too skilled with how you put an outfit together) would probably be a grey/black herringbone. Basically, it will be the negative connotations of others that you are wishing to avoid, and simple patterns which give the overall look of grey will be the least likely to stand out.
     
  11. SVS

    SVS Well-Known Member

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    Style, particularly color, is very location dependent.

    In my mind, city style follows business style (aka grays, charcoals, navies). Country style is aligned with earth tones. As such, I prefer navy to brown pants in the city. The only place navy pants strikes me as workman-like is inside of rural country clubs.

    Heavy earth tones (especially when paired) actually seems very out of place to me in cities.
     
  12. George

    George Well-Known Member

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    Just some of my own rapidly put together thoughts...

    There are probably 3 main differentiators of sport coats to suits appropriate for business.

    Firstly: Pattern
    Secondly: Type of Fabric used
    Thirdly: Details.

    Regarding pattern:

    Patterns for sport coats are on the whole bolder than would be acceptable for City suitings, but, not always, one notable exception here is the Blazer which is usually a solid.

    Regarding fabric:

    Fabric types for sport coats may range from rough Thorn proof tweeds to luxurious lambs wool/cashmere/silk fabrics. City suitings tend to be hard finished worsteds. Again there are exceptions. Wool/Cashmere blends and flannels for example.

    Regarding details:

    There is a lot more scope for unusual details on sports coats, Examples being; patch pockets, throat latches, action backs etc. You would not typically see these on a suit appropriate for business use.

    On top of these you have to factor in your own personal taste, what you are comfortable wearing and the situational use of the jacket. For example: A bold patterned tweed, with bellows pockets and an action back may make you the centre of attention in a trendy nightclub in the city, but for all the wrong reasons. Whereas a dark navy coloured Cashmere sportscoat with a subtle herringbone weave, minimally styled would be far more stylish, and appropriate. If you are so inclined you could think about dressing in terms of a Venn diagram. Where in this dressing Venn diagram, no elements are mutually exclusive.
     
  13. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    In other words, people with a thorough knowledge of the rulebook but zero imagination or genuine style sense.. Navy pants are fine.
    It's an OCD fora world, I'm just living in it.
     
  14. Dewey

    Dewey Well-Known Member

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    I believe this type of objectivity can enhance your own style.

    Objectivity is good -- and so is passion. As with all matters of personal taste and expression, most of us are mainly guided by the more powerful feelings.

    Some young people object strongly to bright brass blazer buttons. Their contempt for the button is all out of proportion. It is not an objective judgment. This drives them to innovate and create what others, more calm about brass buttons, will see as a modern style.
     
  15. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    This is an unfortunate, recurring theme with some. When they feel their past choices or tenets challenged, they say "Why dont we just throw it all away?". How else would someone interpret this stubborn refusal to analyze when on this very forum some will spill an infinite amount of ink over the difference between the darkest charcoal wool and "black" because of its color beauty and concrete social signals. One would think such broad brush strokes denying the myriad gradations of "modernity" impossible.

    No one is suggesting that traditional clothes can't be every bit as beautiful as "modern" ones. Likewise, no one is suggesting that "modern" clothes have to be part of a sci-fi film or some wild "Zoolander" party.



    Some people love music but are tone deaf. I accept that. Problems arise only when the tone def want to conduct.


    Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.
     
  16. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.

    That's cheating...dude has some long posts under his belt.

    - B
     
  17. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    Objectivity is good -- and so is passion. As with all matters of personal taste and expression, most of us are mainly guided by the more powerful feelings. Some young people object strongly to bright brass blazer buttons. Their contempt for the button is all out of proportion. It is not an objective judgment. This drives them to innovate and create what others, more calm about brass buttons, will see as a modern style.
    Looks like a couple of them are being passionately objective for the new year [​IMG] In any case, passion is fine but I see too often when someone feels uncomfortable about a topic which should be discussed, they look to disrupt it and shut it down. Do you call that passion? I call it fear and a desire to control.
     
  18. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a couple of them are being passionately objective for the new year [​IMG]


    In any case, passion is fine but I see too often when someone feels uncomfortable about a topic which should be discussed, they look to disrupt it and shut it down. Do you call that passion? I call it fear and a desire to control.


    Carl, let's have that discussion you have been pining for for so many years. I have offered over and over and over and over and over. But you never take me up on it.

    Stop being such a coward. Quit the passive aggressive BS. Make a new year's resolution to actually do what you say you so desperately want to do.
     
  19. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    That's cheating...dude has some long posts under his belt.

    - B

    Which is why it's a bit rich for him to criticize others for loquacity.

    Have you ever noticed that everything he criticizes in others is a habit he is almost uniquely guilty of himself? The most perfect case of projection I have ever seen. Psychiatrists would pay him large sums of money to use him as a test subject.
     
  20. Fuuma

    Fuuma Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to do a word count comparison of how much you have written about black suits versus how much any other poster(s), individually or together, have written? I'll bet a black suit that your oeuvre is at least three times longer than all the other posts on the topic combined.

    I'm pretty sure I've written a large body of short and biting quips regarding black suits. I'm the black suit Basho to FNB's Proust. Which is highly ironic considering that while I do wear a lot of black non-dressy clothes I only own one black suit and rarely wear it.

    If anyone is wondering what a modern look means and don't want to read all this thread just pickup a GQ and look at all the overstyled "in the klassy club having fun with the ladies" international playboy lifestyle ads. To me it's the epitome of not being modern but what do I know?
     

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