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**The Official Shoe Care Thread: Tutorials, Photos, etc.**

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Mr. Moo, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Why? Just because you say so? I don't feel undignified. to the contrary I feel enriched and even enlightened when I contemplate Asimov's words. so no I don't agree...don't assume.

    You mean as you have done with my remarks about making a profit? Or my remarks about the masses?
     
  2. Munky

    Munky Well-Known Member

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    I think that it is very sad that Travers, seemingly, has been driven off this site. Sometimes his comments were slightly odd but - until recently - he was always cheerful and did know about shoe care. He obviously enjoyed contributing. He was sometimes an easy target and I believe that some people took advantage of that. A sad day on SF.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  3. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I said I didn't want to get into the middle of this thing with Travers but the more I read the reactions...self-righteous, pompous reactions, IMO...the more sympathy I feel for him, despite not caring for coarse language myself (or thinking it anything but counter-productive).

    And yes, he was provoked and it had been going on for a long time. As I said, white chicken, red spot.

    You can commit suicide by goading a sloth. Although sometimes the goading...and the killing...is the whole point, disingenuity notwithstanding
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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  4. Petepan

    Petepan Well-Known Member

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    Take your own advice, read slowly and think carefully.

    I said nothing about the Magna Carta or the Declaration of Independence. You have selectively misquoted me, and that is undignified.

    As to masses point, I then continued to make the same point with the lightbulb and aviation and telegraph, which you have not addressed.

    And I am carefully reading and thinking about the primary motive of craft versus profit making, because to a certain extent I do agree, before providing you with a considered response.
     
  5. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Also, hooting and hollering has been the style of a lot of visionaries. Sometimes that is necessary to push things along as well. I mean look at Steve Jobs. Then again I think DW's frequent discussion is about the objective merits of hand welting, which happens to be an old traditional method. I also don't think he is anti technology, in fact there are things he has mentioned that has improved things along the way such as last making and such. I think it is clear that his goal was to say, hey technology has created a shoe that has inherent flaws to a time tested method of construction if you choose not to see that, or shrug your shoulders go ahead, but this is the fact of the matter no matter how insignificant it is to you. Why is this hard to comprehend?
     
  6. Zapasman

    Zapasman Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes human beings act not correctly. I my self too and many times.

    The point is to recognize your fault and to apologize sincerely (and to learn out of this situations, of course).

    No need to ban no one here, if this is the case.
     
  7. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Right because your wordsmiths (lawyers) never selectively misquote... :rolleyes:
     
  8. vmss

    vmss Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering. Are metal toe caps made of stainless steel ?
     
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  9. Petepan

    Petepan Well-Known Member

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    Lol...

    It is way past bedtime at my end of the pond, so we can continue discussions later in better spirits.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  10. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Also, one thing that makes Style Forum great is its personalities. There have been other forums that ban people at the drop of a hat that I have left because everybody is a robot with similar opinions and it's boring. If you choose not to hoot and holler fine, that's your style and you block members. The power is in your hands.
     
  11. Berners15

    Berners15 Well-Known Member

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    I read as well as I may, comprehend as much as I can, filter, file or discard as required. But my eyesite needs checking - I am genuinely interested, the thread is entertaining, and the knowledge base offsets the BS.
    I cannot for the life of me figure where chemistry and PH values come in - and before someone slams me for that, how far do we go? Next we shall be delving into the quantum world - please please let's do Schrodinger's shoe - if the polished shoe is in the box how can we tell if it's polished or not unless someone opens the box - it would exist in both states, both mirror shined and scuffed [​IMG]
     
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  12. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I never said you did. It's not all about you or responding just to what you have to say. Or is that open for contention, as well?

    You made a remark about all the "great ideas" (from "left field") that had been consigned to the dustbin of history. I countered by challenging you to be positive and constructive and make a list of all the great ideas that have emerged from the masses (a point you have chosen to ignore) and gave the Magna Carta as an example.

    If you had read slowly and though carefully, I wouldn't have to recapitulate the sequence for you much less the implications. You seem to ever ready with advice but apparently unready to see how it might apply to yourself. .


    You say that and yet you make an accusation based upon an untruth and a deliberate (?) misreading of my remarks. Has distortion and misrepresentation become an accepted way of making a point now? For you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  13. Berners15

    Berners15 Well-Known Member

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    Do you know I really haven't the foggiest
     
  14. Munky

    Munky Well-Known Member

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    Berners, a simple question: what is your motive for coming on to this thread?
     
  15. Berners15

    Berners15 Well-Known Member

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    Wind your neck in Paddy
     
  16. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    You have a very sly way of being a douchebag and flying under the radar.
     
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  17. Petepan

    Petepan Well-Known Member

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    Your initial remark was that we should not be concerned with the masses, as the truly groundbreaking ideas are left field. That was my understanding, so please correct me if this is wrong.

    For the sake of clarity, what I am saying is that ideas generated without concern for the masses will not gain traction, as by definition, truly ground breaking ideas must eventually be adopted by the masses who sees a benefit in its adoption. When we consider this issue, we must also not ignore the reality that many left field or unusual ideas do not work at all, hence are consignef to the dustbin of history.

    Maybe there was a misunderstanding on this issue.

    To put thiese arguments into context for other members, the relevance to shoes is the concept of developing technology to allow shoes to be mass produced cheaply and quickly with the correct fit to each wearer.

    As stated earlier, I will talk further about the tension between craft and profit making tomorrow, which is point 2 where DW appears to be alleging misrepresentation on my behalf. Fuuny that a judgment is delivered before submissions are complete, but hey, this is SF.

    As a preliminary, I have in mind the travails of Microsoft vs OS2, VHS vs Betamax, and AC versus DC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  18. mimo

    mimo Well-Known Member

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    Whodathotit? The post-Travers period is worse.
     
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  19. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that. The masses don't, by definition, have any special insights into what is a good idea or a bad idea. Nor any special ability to pick and choose. They are the heart of the Bell Curve--neither left field nor right field. Which is why I challenged you to provide examples of the masses generating great ideas. I believe the masses. ..by definition...will always adopt great ideas so long as they are easy to access and implement. Don't impose a burden, IOW, financial, intellectual or spiritual.

    And so, we slip inevitably into stasis and stagnation like the Eloi, simply because it takes energy and effort to think, learn, master skills, appreciate the nuances of quality and refinement. Just as passion and even being a bit of an oddball takes work and effort.

    There's another misreading. I've often...and repeatedly (perhaps when it was dark on your side of the pond?)... said that mass produced shoes are probably a necessity. At this point in time there simply aren't enough bespoke makers to accommodate everyone. And, I've also said...repeatedly...that I don't begrudge anyone their mass produced shoes.

    More than that...and perhaps even uniquely...I put that into practice--I actually walk the walk and refuse to critique or diss specific makers or manufacturers.

    You made the accusation. About me. Not the other way around. I suspect it would difficult for any rational person to objectively argue that such accusations don't come from a misreading or a lack or reading or an inability to comprehend. It comes from your own assumptions, IOW..

    As long as such assumptions and misapprehensions exist, i think we will always be talking past one another.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  20. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    I don't think DW is trying to make anything ground breaking. Technology should be used to progress and make things better, not sly imitations of something that was better yesteryear. Then again, are there stronger and more durable materials for footwear than leather? Yes, but that isn't what this conversation is about. Bespoke, traditionally made footwear specifically isn't for the masses. The point is people go into buying expensive shoes from a location in the world who supposedly makes traditionally crafted shoes using old style materials (leather) and they get an imitation of that at a lesser quality. Bespoke shoes aren't for the masses so I don't get your point.

    Also Edison gets all of the credit for what is largely a Tesla (man, not the company)-invented technology. Edison even killed an elephant in the process to fool the masses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
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