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Steroids!

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by Soph, Sep 30, 2006.

  1. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, I suppose. No one has died of a steroid overdose. Point taken. (EDIT - I re-read my original post and wished that I had been more specific when I said "used foolishly", since deaths such as those suffered by Andeas Muenzer can be more readily attributed to a mixture of effects than one simple substance. - close EDIT)

    To also be fair, I continue to reserve judgement on the goods that big pharm pushes upon us. Just because there are no ill effects today does not mean that everything is safe. You may call it hysteria and poor education if you like.


    --- Now these are wise and level headed comments. Diurectics are much more dangerous than steroids, something you could die from. I'm just saying its hypocritical to ban one unhealthy behavior (even use seems maybe to potential make you healthier) over another.

    Legal and Unhealthy activiites:

    Smoking---neeed on go on about the huge amount of lung cancer and deaths cited on this one.
    Drinking in Excess---ideally alcohol should be illegal that way there would be no drunk driving deaths, none, you don't need alcohol to live.....but society and $$$ thrive on it.
    Football
    Auto racing
    motorcycles ---- think of all the deaths that would be prevented if this was illegal
    Boxing
    UFC

    Sport are NOT healthy they are competitive, they have nothing to do with health.

    -- Yet people will say this is bad make it illegal why they puff on a proven death stick.....why? because you should have the right to take risks if you deem them worthy and you don't hurt others.......

    I personally like some risky behaviors as do most people, it's called freedom to choose.
     
  2. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    I am not against steroids in fact quite the opposite,but I think there can be no doubt that orals(anadrol,turinabol,dianabol,winstrol etc...)are going to give your liver a good kicking and ultimately lead to very serious damage.

    --- Perhaps, but again, we are talking about sane usage. I agree anadrol is bad news long term. It is the only steroid that has demonstrated potential liver cancer. But its the extreme case with Deca being so non androgenic/highly anabolic, they have given to women for osteo.
     
  3. mizanation

    mizanation Well-Known Member

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    good points, soph. unfortunately, like many things, what you're saying is way above the heads of regular americans.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    --- Diurectics are much more dangerous than steroids, something you could die from. I'm just saying its hypocritical to ban one unhealthy behavior (even use seems maybe to potential make you healthier) over another.

    Soph,

    Have you read Freakonomics? The authors make the statistical point that swimming pools kill more children than gun accidents in the house (current horrific headlines aside), but public perception is skewed the other way. The authors (iirc) put forth a rigorous treatment of the statistics to make a compelling conclusion, better than I could summarize here. Excellent book and a quick read. Seems relevant to your point.
     
  5. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    good points, soph. unfortunately, like many things, what you're saying is way above the heads of regular americans.

    --- I'd have to agree, as Gumbal says Americans love their mass mentality, non critical questioning hysteria over logical thought. Under Dr. supervision, regular lab test I would postulate that after 35-40 years old, educated usage improves your health.
     
  6. Augusto86

    Augusto86 Well-Known Member

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    --- Now these are wise and level headed comments. Diurectics are much more dangerous than steroids, something you could die from. I'm just saying its hypocritical to ban one unhealthy behavior (even use seems maybe to potential make you healthier) over another.

    Legal and Unhealthy activiites:

    Smoking---neeed on go on about the huge amount of lung cancer and deaths cited on this one.
    Drinking in Excess---ideally alcohol should be illegal that way there would be no drunk driving deaths, none, you don't need alcohol to live.....but society and $$$ thrive on it.
    Football
    Auto racing
    motorcycles ---- think of all the deaths that would be prevented if this was illegal
    Boxing
    UFC

    Sport are NOT healthy they are competitive, they have nothing to do with health.

    -- Yet people will say this is bad make it illegal why they puff on a proven death stick.....why? because you should have the right to take risks if you deem them worthy and you don't hurt others.......

    I personally like some risky behaviors as do most people, it's called freedom to choose.


    Are you then advocating abolishing alcohol but legalizing 'roids?

    I think that almost all drugs should be legalized but I am personally very uncomfortable with the idea of steroids - which is funny, because as I a diabetic I will literally die without gen-eng insulin.
     
  7. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    Are you then advocating abolishing alcohol but legalizing 'roids?

    I think that almost all drugs should be legalized but I am personally very uncomfortable with the idea of steroids - which is funny, because as I a diabetic I will literally die without gen-eng insulin.



    ---Of course I am not advocating abolishing alcohol but legalizing roids; that's ridiculous. I can assure alcohol has directly been involved the deaths of thousands, whereas roids(again which ones? what dosage? how long? previous health?etc. etc.etc.) is lucky to find one case with a direct correlation.
     
  8. MrRogers

    MrRogers Well-Known Member

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    But its the extreme case with Deca being so non androgenic/highly anabolic, they have given to women for osteo.

    My mother received deca at 25-50mg for her osteo, most bodybuilders use between 400 and 1000mg

    Steriods should certainly not be legalized. Once something is "legal" most individuals deem it "safe." What you will end up with is every 130 lb 16 year old stickin needles in their ass so they dont get beat up at the bus stop.

    As i said before steriods can be used safely, but its easier said than done. I'm an educated guy with 2 masters degrees and finishing up a doctorate degree but even I did not always use in as safe a manner as I should have. I started using steriods too early at age 19. In roughly 5.5 years I went from 155 lbs to 260 lbs at 12% bf. While steriods obviously helped me along the way I trained and ate like an animal and dedicated my entire life to my fitness goals (eg. didnt drink a drop of alcohol in college). As you use continuously, you need higher dosages to grow- even if you are taking equal amounts of time off cycle as you do on. I think my first cycle was 8 weeks of deca at 200mg a week. The last cycle I did was 2000mg test, 50mg dianabol, 600mg deca, 6iu GH a day, insulin, aldactone for the bloat, propecia for my receding hairline and prolly 3-4 more things I cant remember. After using for so many years the receptors just don't respond like they used to and increasing dosages in inevitable. There is also the mindset that youve done x amount before with no problems so x more cant hurt. I've probably met 100 guys who've cycled and not one of them did only one.

    Today i'm off for good and still like to train but its hard pushing 85lb dbells when u used to throw up 150's for twice as many reps. At 26 I have pretty bad back pain (despite always maintaining immaculate form), my hands sweat like crazy for some reason, and I still have lumps of scar tissue at my inj sites. I had blood sugar issues for some time after using the insulin which have now resolved. In retrospect, id prolly do it all again but I do cringe when I consider how much money I spent on gear that could have been invested in bespoke suits and lattanzi shoes.

    Anyway,

    MrR
     
  9. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    My mother received deca at 25-50mg for her osteo, most bodybuilders use between 400 and 1000mg

    ---valid point, however deca has conisently be shown to be one of the Safest and most potent anabolic. I think it should and it is LEGAL currently to put you in the moderate to high category. Again for the appropriate patient.

    Steriods should certainly not be legalized. Once something is "legal" most individuals deem it "safe." What you will end up with is every 130 lb 16 year old stickin needles in their ass so they dont get beat up at the bus stop.

    ---As always under doctor superivision, and of course not for a 16 year old. by the way, 16 year's get ahold of alcohol too and cigarettes and othe drugs legal or not. You are using a pretty weak, exaggerated argument with the above.

    As i said before steriods can be used safely, but its easier said than done. I'm an educated guy with 2 masters degrees and finishing up a doctorate degree but even I did not always use in as safe a manner as I should have. I started using steriods too early at age 19. In roughly 5.5 years I went from 155 lbs to 260 lbs at 12% bf. While steriods obviously helped me along the way I trained and ate like an animal and dedicated my entire life to my fitness goals (eg. didnt drink a drop of alcohol in college). As you use continuously, you need higher dosages to grow- even if you are taking equal amounts of time off cycle as you do on. I think my first cycle was 8 weeks of deca at 200mg a week. The last cycle I did was 2000mg test, 50mg dianabol, 600mg deca, 6iu GH a day, insulin, aldactone for the bloat, propecia for my receding hairline and prolly 3-4 more things I cant remember. After using for so many years the receptors just don't respond like they used to and increasing dosages in inevitable. There is also the mindset that youve done x amount before with no problems so x more cant hurt. I've probably met 100 guys who've cycled and not one of them did only one.

    --- You were pretty hardcore, I don't think the theme of this thread is professional bodybuilding which the last cycle above would indicate a pretty hardcore bodybuilder.

    Today i'm off for good and still like to train but its hard pushing 85lb dbells when u used to throw up 150's for twice as many reps. At 26 I have pretty bad back pain (despite always maintaining immaculate form), my hands sweat like crazy for some reason, and I still have lumps of scar tissue at my inj sites. I had blood sugar issues for some time after using the insulin which have now resolved. In retrospect, id prolly do it all again but I do cringe when I consider how much money I spent on gear that could have been invested in bespoke suits and lattanzi shoes.


    ----true....insulin.....man you were crazy daredevil, glad you're still with us.
     
  10. MrRogers

    MrRogers Well-Known Member

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    Steriods should certainly not be legalized. Once something is "legal" most individuals deem it "safe." What you will end up with is every 130 lb 16 year old stickin needles in their ass so they dont get beat up at the bus stop.

    ---As always under doctor superivision, and of course not for a 16 year old. by the way, 16 year's get ahold of alcohol too and cigarettes and othe drugs legal or not. You are using a pretty weak, exaggerated argument with the above.


    Go to www.1fast400.com and search posts for methandione, AKA "Superdrol"
    SD is an extremely toxic and strong steriod that as of a couple months ago was legally available online for 19.99. When I would frequent the board regularly, there were always kids around 15-16yo asking for proper dosages and how SD should be taken. Chances are that despite everyone telling them to not use SD they did anyway because they needed to "bulk up for tryouts" or were 130 lbs soaking wet.
    Even after years of cycling experience, a 3 week cycle of this stuff at the recommended dosage was terrible. Without a doubt the harshest and most toxic drug I've ever taken. Many many others have had the same experience. Lowerback pain, extreme lethargy, appetite suppression, decreased libido, hair loss etc. My nephews tell me that kids in his HS are eating this stuff up like crazy since there's still some in circulation. The damage they must be doing to their developing bodies is incredible.

    MrR
     
  11. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    Go to www.1fast400.com and search posts for methandione, AKA "Superdrol"
    SD is an extremely toxic and strong steriod that as of a couple months ago was legally available online for 19.99. When I would frequent the board regularly, there were always kids around 15-16yo asking for proper dosages and how SD should be taken. Chances are that despite everyone telling them to not use SD they did anyway because they needed to "bulk up for tryouts" or were 130 lbs soaking wet.
    Even after years of cycling experience, a 3 week cycle of this stuff at the recommended dosage was terrible. Without a doubt the harshest and most toxic drug I've ever taken. Many many others have had the same experience. Lowerback pain, extreme lethargy, appetite suppression, decreased libido, hair loss etc. My nephews tell me that kids in his HS are eating this stuff up like crazy since there's still some in circulation. The damage they must be doing to their developing bodies is incredible.
    MrR


    --- I'll stick firmly behind what I have stated. You are citing examples of abuse and wth a really dumb steroids to take. Legal or Illegal? It's not that simple, either way kids are going to try to get an edge, kids speed, that have unprotected sex, they do alot of risky behaviors, it doesn't matter legal or not. If you can show me a study that kids (what age, demographic etc) use steroids more because it would be legal "for appropritate adults" which you can't, it still doesn't change what we are discussing here.


    The side effects do not apply to the class, and there are alot of variables with side effects. Now imagine, if they were under a doctor supervision, lab tests, and taking the say deca, low androgen/highly anabolic. This would be insane from a social standpoint, but if they are goign to do it anyway, at least they would be eliminating most of the risk, and maximizing.

    Again, taking street drugs, anabolic or otherwise is a very risky behavior.
     
  12. j

    j Well-Known Member

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    Go to www.1fast400.com and search posts for methandione, AKA "Superdrol"
    SD is an extremely toxic and strong steriod that as of a couple months ago was legally available online for 19.99. When I would frequent the board regularly, there were always kids around 15-16yo asking for proper dosages and how SD should be taken. Chances are that despite everyone telling them to not use SD they did anyway because they needed to "bulk up for tryouts" or were 130 lbs soaking wet.
    Even after years of cycling experience, a 3 week cycle of this stuff at the recommended dosage was terrible. Without a doubt the harshest and most toxic drug I've ever taken. Many many others have had the same experience. Lowerback pain, extreme lethargy, appetite suppression, decreased libido, hair loss etc. My nephews tell me that kids in his HS are eating this stuff up like crazy since there's still some in circulation. The damage they must be doing to their developing bodies is incredible.

    MrR

    If the safer compounds were available at low (legal) risk, do you think kids would still be trying to use the more dangerous ones?
     
  13. mizanation

    mizanation Well-Known Member

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    yeah, giving the power of god to a 16 year old never works out too good.
     
  14. j

    j Well-Known Member

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    Well we already let them drive 6000lb invulnerable tanks around the streets with near impunity, what's a little needle in the scheme of things?
     
  15. MrRogers

    MrRogers Well-Known Member

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    --- I'll stick firmly behind what I have stated. You are citing examples of abuse and wth a really dumb steroids to take. Legal or Illegal? It's not that simple, either way kids are going to try to get an edge, kids speed, that have unprotected sex, they do alot of risky behaviors, it doesn't matter legal or not. If you can show me a study that kids (what age, demographic etc) use steroids more because it would be legal "for appropritate adults" which you can't, it still doesn't change what we are discussing here. The side effects do not apply to the class, and there are alot of variables with side effects. Now imagine, if they were under a doctor supervision, lab tests, and taking the say deca, low androgen/highly anabolic. This would be insane from a social standpoint, but if they are goign to do it anyway, at least they would be eliminating most of the risk, and maximizing. Again, taking street drugs, anabolic or otherwise is a very risky behavior.
    You speak pretty strongly on this topic soph despite having no experience whatsoever with any of these compounds. A study proving that kids would take AAS if it became legal? I'm a huge research hound myself but I doubt that such as matter has been sufficiently investigated by anyone; if it has, I dont have the time or the inclination to search for it and show you. My post is a reflection of what I see going on in the fitness community, not what I think would happen. Of course there are variants regarding appearance/severity of side effects, however 17-AA compounds such as SD are known to be toxic to the liver and shut down test production. The degree to which this occurs of course varies, however, the properties of the drug don't change. You cite Deca over and over again as a "low androgenic/high anabolic drug" yet i've seen plenty of people develop gyno from even low doses. Ever heard of "deca dick?" Another commonly experienced side effect even at low dosages. Just because its not listed on steriods101.com "side effects" doesn't mean its not true. If there is a relatively safe steriod its EQ or andriol. Under a docs supervision? Another idea thats great in fantasy land. Work with a doc on monitoring your bloods during a cycle. See what he tells you to do if you develop gyno in the middle of the cycle. You think hes going to prescribe you an anti-e? Most docs are so ignorant when it comes to AAS its incredible they have the degrees that they do. I'm not saying this out of disrespect to docs but rather what I have seen and experienced first hand. MrR
     
  16. MrRogers

    MrRogers Well-Known Member

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    If the safer compounds were available at low (legal) risk, do you think kids would still be trying to use the more dangerous ones?
    J, most of the kids I come across who use will use anything available. However, most tend to go with oral substances over injectables, despite the inj being less harmful. It is ironic though that stuff like methandione is legal while much safer drugs are illegal. I'll even admit that when I tried methandione I had read up on it quite a bit, but still couldnt believe the effects it had on me; even at a low dose. I did gain about 15 lbs (mostly bloat) in ten days however. My pops and brother are infectious disease physicians and were commenting to me a while back about how many cases they saw this past summer in which young HS kids, and adults for that matter, had developed abcesses from injecting either dirty gear, reusing needles, not prepping the site, etc. MrR
     
  17. mizanation

    mizanation Well-Known Member

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    Well we already let them drive 6000lb invulnerable tanks around the streets with near impunity, what's a little needle in the scheme of things?

    lol, you got a point there. [​IMG]
     
  18. mizanation

    mizanation Well-Known Member

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    mr. rogers, informative stuff.

    my opinion is that people are people and if the technology exists, people will do whatever it takes to obtain these substances--especially kids and young adults.

    i know somebody in queens who sold illegal steroids for a living, made a lot of money, too. he was also a heavy user and was HUGE. he even juiced his pitbull. anyways, a couple years ago he died. he was in his mid 30s, his body had had enough. i'm sure he knew all the risks and hazards, but it didn't matter.
     
  19. MrRogers

    MrRogers Well-Known Member

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    mr. rogers, informative stuff.

    my opinion is that people are people and if the technology exists, people will do whatever it takes to obtain these substances--especially kids and young adults.

    i know somebody in queens who sold illegal steroids for a living, made a lot of money, too. he was also a heavy user and was HUGE. he even juiced his pitbull. anyways, a couple years ago he died. he was in his mid 30s, his body had had enough. i'm sure he knew all the risks and hazards, but it didn't matter.



    Sad case miz. Alot of times its the lifestyle that gets these guys. Most heavy users and certainly dealers dabble in rec drugs themselves. Guy I was good friends with during my heyday was no exception. He used (abused) for close to a decade but was also addicted to nubain and used alot of other rec drugs (coke, k, e, etc) He finally od'd on coke and checked out in his early 30's. Wasn't the AAS that killed him per se but the lifestyle certainly did him in. I grew up in Long Island and there were alot of these shady guys around.

    MrR
     
  20. Soph

    Soph Well-Known Member

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    You speak pretty strongly on this topic soph despite having no experience whatsoever with any of these compounds. A study proving that kids would take AAS if it became legal? I'm a huge research hound myself but I doubt that such as matter has been sufficiently investigated by anyone; if it has, I dont have the time or the inclination to search for it and show you. My post is a reflection of what I see going on in the fitness community, not what I think would happen.

    Of course there are variants regarding appearance/severity of side effects, however 17-AA compounds such as SD are known to be toxic to the liver and shut down test production. The degree to which this occurs of course varies, however, the properties of the drug don't change. You cite Deca over and over again as a "low androgenic/high anabolic drug" yet i've seen plenty of people develop gyno from even low doses. Ever heard of "deca dick?" Another commonly experienced side effect even at low dosages. Just because its not listed on steriods101.com "side effects" doesn't mean its not true. If there is a relatively safe steriod its EQ or andriol.

    Under a docs supervision? Another idea thats great in fantasy land. Work with a doc on monitoring your bloods during a cycle. See what he tells you to do if you develop gyno in the middle of the cycle. You think hes going to prescribe you an anti-e? Most docs are so ignorant when it comes to AAS its incredible they have the degrees that they do. I'm not saying this out of disrespect to docs but rather what I have seen and experienced first hand.

    MrR


    1. What you see going on around you. Well whomever you see isn't real bright. Deca is cited due to the potential benefits also not just the risks. If you are going to do this you want results also.

    2. Again, under a 'docs' supervision I stated socially would never be.

    3. Any user who has even the slightly bit of knowledge uses clomid, nolvadex, HCG-, Fertodor (cyclofenil)-off cycle, stilbesterol derivates. If you get gyno from deca you're an idiot and shouldn't be 'abusing' anyway. 'Deca Dick' please, and this has what to do with what argument?. It's called Viagra. Deca doesn't not alter your test levels enough to affect sexual drive to cause impotence; it's something else. You have no data other than yea, my gym buddy says so and I've seen lots of guys say's Deca makes them ED. I've seen guys do alot of dumb stuff because of this street MD shit. It's a vascular event for the most part.

    4. I would agree, 99% -pure estimate but I know alot of physicians0alot- of physicians hanven't a clue, but think they do. I doubt most even know what the difference between deca and anadrol is. The only cases they see are trainwrecks where some idiot took anadrol 50 for like 6 months etc or something equally stupid and along with the media it reinforces their bad steroid mentality. These is no steroid class in med school. Only endo's have a clue and sport medicine.
     

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