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st crispins vs vass

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by carpediem, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. laufer

    laufer Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. That is just what I am trying to say it is not necessary to have a experience with the product to determine the value of the product. That value is created in your head.
     
  2. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Right - as I said, we just see this one very differently.

    Anyone can hold and express an opinion - but for it to have any meaning it must be based upon at least some degree of experience. There are any number of products with which I have no experience - high end audio equipment, food processors, cappuccino machines - whathaveyou.

    For me to pronounce upon the value of any of these products in any way (much less declare them to be overpriced) - would amount to a declaration in a vacuum - and one that has little or no meaning. The assessment of value would indeed be "created in my head" - or to use perhaps a more accurate term - "imaginary".
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  3. justsayno

    justsayno Well-Known Member

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    Pricing is an Art as well as Science. If the market cannot bear the cost, St.C would have to lower its price to extract maximum profit. It doesn't matter to St.C what you, the individual consumer think what a fair price is, St. C cares about what the market thinks. And the levers to change what the market thinks are Product quality, features, Pricing, and Marketing activities(advertising, blogs, videos, roadshows).
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  4. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Well-Known Member

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    Roger, I have no experience with Prada Creepers, but I feel they are overpriced. I also had no experience with MacBook Pros and thought they were overpriced; now I do have experience with them, and my suspicions were confirmed (sorry Apple fans).

    I think it is perfectly reasonable to gauge the value of something with research even if you don't get direct experience with it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  5. mr monty

    mr monty Well-Known Member

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    44.5????
     
  6. rc121

    rc121 Well-Known Member

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    So because you "confirmed" one of your suspicions, all of your suspicions must be true? This is not logic.

    Sure, anyone can gauge the value of something without having first hand experience. But those opinions based on first hand knowledge should be given that much more weight. The inherent purpose of a pair of shoes is to wear/walk in them. You may be able to compare construction, leather options, etc. between makers, but you can't give an opinion on something that requires first hand knowledge like fit, comfort, service, etc.
     
  7. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Well-Known Member

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    No, that's solely an example to show that you can't exclude somebody's opinion just because he hasn't handled in person. You made the sweeping generalization, not me.

    I don't think opinions based on first hand knowledge should be given more weight; opinions based on MORE knowledge should be given more weight. If I took a friend who cared zero about shoes, gave him a pair of StCs, he'd say they were grossly overpriced. He has first hand experience, but no knowledge of materials, construction, and the market's landscape. That is not to say Roger isn't knowledgeable, and I greatly appreciate his valuable inputs, but you cannot exclude an opinion just because he has never handled the shoe in person.

    I for one don't think StC is overpriced, given the extents Philip goes for ensuring proper fit and service. Hand-welted MTO with great and ON TIME (hi EG and GG) service for similar price as Northampton MTO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2013
  8. JubeiSpiegel

    JubeiSpiegel Well-Known Member

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    ^
    It should be noted that all the research someone might reference to form an opinion, is at it's source based on first hand experience and use. What you call opinion, others would call conjecture...
     
  9. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    When opinion is limited to personal experiences, it is isolated and subjective. A man who lives all his life on the equator will never believe that there is such a thing as snow. A man who smokes all his life will never accept that smoking can cause lung cancer. Eventually people who rely on first hand experience only reach a point where they simply cannot alter their opinions...cannot learn...even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

    Objectivity relies on information that encompasses data from a number of different perspectives. The personal experiences of people who do not live on the equator. Or who have traveled to the Arctic. Who have looked at tissue samples from smokers as well as non-smokers. It's the integration of these widely disparate experiences and information...before an opinion is formed...that characterizes objectivity.

    Not all opinions are informed or, more importantly, objective. Narrowly drawn opinions tend to be subsets of a greater picture and as such are incomplete. Absent external data such opinions rely on emotions to fill the void and rationality goes begging. In other words, not all opinions have equal, objective, weight.

    The issue of value or pricing is subjective and relative to the observer--as in quantum physics. And tends to be relevant only to the observer. People who gravitate to the superficial aspects of a product--shine, colour, price--will have one view of value and worth. People who look to more substantive aspects will have another.

    Bottom line is that, in the absence of objectivity, you simply cannot talk about value...and that's the issue at the core of any discussion about whether an item is over-priced...without engendering massive amounts of self-congratulatory, subjective opinion and even defensiveness. And then it becomes "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
     
    2 people like this.
  10. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. So many of the factors that inform any reasonable (as opposed to imaginary / fabricated / arbitrary) opinion on value - as it relates to shoes - are based on personal experience. While there is invariably an aspect of subjectivity to perceived value, absent experience, there is nothing upon which such even subjectivity can rest. It becomes not a subjective opinion, but an arbitrary one.

    If you've never handled or tried on a pair of St. Crispin's shoes (let alone owned and worn a pair over an extended period) you really have no concept of the fit - the subtle concave shape of the footbed under the ball of the foot and welcome support under the arch. You can't see and feel for yourself the quality of the calfskin or the fine shading of the finish (hands up everyone who thinks the quality of a shoe can be fully assessed based on a photograph alone - anyone? Bueller?)

    Of course you are free to pronounce upon the comparative value of the shoes and declare them to be overpriced. It's a freeish forum. But that is a declaration made in a vacuum and an opinion worth little to me. Just as if someone were offering an opinion on the value of a Mercedes (but had never driven one) - or the quality of food at a restaurant (but had never dined there) - or the overall experience of a vacation resort (but had never stayed there) would be of little value to me.

    jaywhyy - thank you for your kind comment.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    All that assumes that your (generic "your") personal experience is universal...or ought to be. And that's demonstrably not true--across the board. More than that, it strikes me as a particularly arrogant assumption, no matter who expresses it.

    You can stick your foot into a pair of $50.00 Walmart running shoes and by virtue of the built in cushioning, pronounce them wonderfully comfortable, supportive and subtle. But others may not experience the same thing. In a group of one hundred, size 9A feet no two will be identical...even on the same body.

    All fit/comfort considerations are subjective. All "style", appearance, value considerations are subjective. All personal experience is subjective unless profoundly mitigated by data, logic and experience originating outside of ourselves.

    Unless all factors relating to the premise are taken into consideration.

    And if Walmart quintuples the price on those same shoes, will they be overpriced? If you put a swoosh on the sides will they be overpriced at ten times the price? What about quality? material? construction standards? Because that's what it comes down to--there's simply not a significant difference between $50.00 running shoes and $200.00 running shoes.

    Similarly,...all things being equal...there's no significant, objective, or major difference between the quality of one tannery's calfskin and that of another.

    One person may like the finish of a particular calfskin...but in most cases, esp in the absence of any real understanding or comprehension regarding the way finishes perform (and are intended to perform) on calf, etc., it's again, just more emotion, more subjectivity. And of no importance to anyone but the person whose preferences are being expressed.

    In that same context, one person may like a smooth, opaque finish with no regard to whether such a heavy surface coat is more prone to cracking than, say an aniline finish. Yet, the aniline finished leather may not last as long as the top coated finished leather...depending on how diligently the shoes are maintained.

    Another person may prefer a crust that has been finished and polished to a fare-thee-well during make-up.

    The bottom line is that no matter how fervently you believe that your opinions represent a universal truth, they are nearly irrelevant for anyone else unless that person is your newly awakened clone.

    --
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  12. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Good point here.
     
  13. wurger

    wurger Well-Known Member

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    I will have a few pairs of Vass soon, but even before I receive them, like Roger said, the fact that you can have 3 pairs of Vass compare to 1 pair of St. Crispin, makes me willing to purchase a lot more of Vass than St.Crispins.

    While I admit my pair of St. Crispins is the nicest shoes I have, but it's also the most expensive, 1750 AUD, compare to the next expensive JL Paris 1400 AUD, and with G&G and EG on sales, around 800 to 900.

    Vass direct is only around 600 AUD, so I would compare them to G&G and EG, in saying they are good value.

    With relation to price, I would say St, Crispins MTO is better value compare to JL Paris, and G&G MTO.
     
  14. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Well-Known Member

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    StC has been popular on this board for quite a long time. This thread itself was started in '09. Carmina is still very popular. I don't see your point.
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it either.
     
  16. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Quick answer: you are completely wrong.
    Longish answer: not worth the keystrokes.
     

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