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St. Crispin's Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. agedashidofu

    agedashidofu Well-Known Member

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    Thanks this is very helpful


    May I ask why from your perspective? Thanks
     
  2. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Because saddle soap is very alkaline ~ph of 9. Leathers protein fibers are ph of around 3-5. Introducing such an alkaline environment for leather will shift the protein fibers from ionic positive to ionic negative which will repel the tanning agents which are also ionic negative.
     
  3. Dan A

    Dan A New Member

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    I'm a PhD student in chemistry in a R1 program, and I'd just like to mention how careful you have to be with scientific concepts if you choose to use them. 1) Proteins don't intrinsically have pHs; they do have pI values associated with them 2) pH of 9 is not very basic. 3) I assume what you're getting at is that the the positively charged amino acids of the leather (namely lysine and arginine) form ionic bonds with tanning agents that are negatively charged, and saddle soap can convert them to anions. The flaw with your argument is that the pKa of lysine and arginine are around 10-12, which means that the solution must be greater than those 2 values. In addition, you need a far, far more basic solution to convert lysine and arginine to anions. The point I want to make is that there are no amino acids where the charges can go from negative -> neutral -> positive in the range of pH of 3 to 9.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Well-Known Member

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    Not saying either you or pbooth are right or wrong, but protein charge can indeed change easily with pH and is dependent on their pI. Not to mention denaturation. Let's move this discussion to the shoe care thread.
     
  5. JubeiSpiegel

    JubeiSpiegel Well-Known Member

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  6. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, protein fibers are amphoteric and take on the characteristics of either an acid or a base, when they are shifted ionic positive from the introduction of something above an isoelectric point of about a ph of 6 it begins to resist the fatliquors introduced during the tanning process, which are about a ph of about 5 and ionic negative.
     
  7. sprout2

    sprout2 Well-Known Member

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    What the hell just happened
     
  8. MoosicPa

    MoosicPa Well-Known Member

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    No idea....
     
  9. VRaivio

    VRaivio Well-Known Member

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    ...I don't know about you guys, but I think I'm getting some signs of heavy reflux with the occasional acid burp or two inbound.
     
  10. agedashidofu

    agedashidofu Well-Known Member

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    One more Q if you don't mind...between kudu suede, kid suede (goat) and janus suede (calf) what are the pros and cons?

    Thx
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Again, depends on the tannage...but the kudu would tend to be more like deer, the goat thinner and less strong, and the Janus the one I would choose--It's calf, and calf is the premium leather for making men's shoes.
     
  12. Itsuo

    Itsuo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you DFW, would you mind clarifying what you mean by "kudu would tend to be more like deer"? I know you mentioned earlier that deer is softer, more stretchy, and more porous--leading to more dirt retention; but, does all of that hold for it's suede?

    I ordered one of my St.Cs in kudu suede mostly for aesthetic purposes. I'm not sure why but the color tended to be brighter and more metallic than a lot of the calf suede colors which just appeared flat and dull in comparison.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  13. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why the colours would be brighter--a different tanner, a different dye or a different process of preparing the leather for the dye, perhaps.

    Wild animals tend to have a less dense fiber mat. Partly...especially in the deer/antelope families...this is due to the hair being hollow and coarse. Again tannage can make a difference and some hides are tumbled and subject to chemicals that will cause the fiber mat to "draw up" (shrink)...although this is not often permanent.

    As for suede versus full grain leathers...it doesn't make a difference. "Suede" is either the back side of the full grain hide (reverse calf) or it is a "split"...meaning that the full grain has been cut off and the looser, lesser layers underneath are marketed as "suede."

    If the hide is reverse calf all the properties of the full grain leather are present...including the dense, somewhat stronger tear resistance of the grain and corium.

    If the suede is a split, the leather will be have a looser, less dense, less coherent fiber mat simply because the layers of skin that are furthest from the grain surface have more adipose cells and more open structure. So a split will always be weaker and less dense than a reverse calf. Combine that with a leather (deer, antelope?) that has a tendency to be loose anyway....

    All suedes/splits pick up dirt and moisture more readily than full grain.That said, I suspect that such dirt is somewhat less damaging to the leather, simply because a loose fiber mat cannot apply as much abrasive pressure to the grit as a dense fiber mat.

    --
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    PS...I'm just waiting for the "usual suspects"--that revolving band of circle-jerks--to jump in here (ala the recent G&G discussion) and whine about this discussion getting off track or becoming irritating or too much positive, objective, concrete information being offered.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
    3 people like this.
  15. Itsuo

    Itsuo Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the explanation, this site continues to teach me more and more everyday. For some reason that appears to be linked to the more and more I spend on shoes as time goes on.

    I'm assuming the St.C's are reversed vs split, but I guess it couldn't hurt to ask. I agree that the coloring could have had to do more with the treatment of the leather than it's actual physical make up.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  16. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Neutralizing the acid with high pH liquids such as saddle soap is not advised; it will change the protein structure at your digestion system causing it to lose fidelity and durability.

    I would look for a pH neutral solution; either cream, paste, or liquid is fine.
     
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  17. VRaivio

    VRaivio Well-Known Member

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    Oh, come on, that's just nasty and you're calling for action with tosses like this. Everyone wants to be right online, but bickering will only take attention away from your always empirical and thorough posts.

    chogall: I will go with some proton pump inhibitors at this hour. I hear the latest vintage of Nexium is most palatable.
     
    2 people like this.
  18. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Where was your outrage or call to action or willingness to characterize on page 804 through 807 in the G&G thread? Or posts 12111 through 12116? Seems to me there was a call to action right there...for those who really and truly care about bickering and objectivity.

    There's a small cadre of people who make nasty remarks...all the more so because they are entirely gratuitous...attacking people who actually do make "empirical and thorough posts." A cadre who themselves seldom offer anything informative, objective, or positive but are always waiting to swoop in with criticisms, vitriol and snark...usually in the midst (never at the beginning) of what is for most people interesting and informational discussions. These people, when not trolling, spend most of their often substantial number of posts in meaningless ego stroking and agreement with each others' nattering.

    Sometimes I let it go, sometimes I don't but it's always unnecessary and if other people don't feel any responsibility to counter it--consistently, not selectively--then they don't have any right to bitch or criticize those that do.

    The last several pages of this thread have been more than a little OT. I remember...even if you don't...what happened in the G&G thread when it got similarly in the weeds.

    --
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  19. Mr. Pink

    Mr. Pink Well-Known Member

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    I could be wrong but I recall an older iteration of St Crispin's website suggesting that saddle soap be used for cleaning very dirty shoes.
     
  20. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

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    You might want to check with St Crispin, whether their "kudu" does actually come from the African kudu antelope (or even from any kind of deer). I seem to remember it is just a fancy name for a sueded bovine hide, made to look (more or less) like kudu (the animal) leather. If I remember correctly, what is generally called "kudu-suede" is actually a sanded bottom split (cheap and nasty stuff).

    Alden offers chukka boots in "kudu-suede", so does Cole Haan with a collection in "kudu-suede":

    http://www.essentialhommemag.com/coming-soon-cole-haan-kudu-suede-collection/

    Maybe St Crispin uses as "kudu-suede" a genuine antelope leather, but I somewhat doubt it. You better ask, otherwise you might end-up with split-leather.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
    1 person likes this.

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