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Shoes Explained

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by A Harris, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. misterjase

    misterjase Well-Known Member

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    Jun 21, 2007
    I notice that some shoes are made with single thickness soles and some shoes are made with double thickness soles.
    Is there a practical reason for the double thickness soles?
     
  2. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

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    a. harris:just a quick complement on your excellent "shoe review". Concise, informative and very well written. Bravo! I, myself, have written 8 books so I know from whence I speak. Not so easy to produce a piece on what could have been a bit of a dry topic, yet you have managed to bring this subject to life. thank you, dpw

    I missed this earlier. Thanks for your kind comments dpw!

    Misterjase, double soles are mostly a stylistic choice. However, they do stand up better to heavy wear, resist rounding better, and offer more protection from whatever you might step on. A lot of English and Italian shoes with dressy single soles feel almost like slippers once they have broken in. You can feel what is underfoot, right through the sole. I've not decided if I like that feeling or not.
     
  3. emptym

    emptym Well-Known Member

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    Bumped for brilliance.
     
  4. SpallaCamiccia

    SpallaCamiccia Well-Known Member

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    Between Pinkos land and the sanitarium.
  5. Shikar

    Shikar Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit busy right now, but promise to come back and review dpw and grims' posts in 2-3 years.

    [​IMG]

    Regards.
     
  6. Reevolving

    Reevolving Well-Known Member

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    San Fran
    Anyone else not like these square-toed looks? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. amplifiedheat

    amplifiedheat Well-Known Member

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    I never liked more than the slightest hint of squareness. I love round toes, and I say this with two considerably wide feet.
     
  8. stevrons

    stevrons New Member

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    Very interesting post, I know it's an old one but thanks for all the pictures and details, you obviously spent quite some time on it, it was a fun read. I tried joining the mailing list, but the link takes me to a japanese website with no apparent link to a mailing list, although I don't read Japanese so..there could be one there.
     
  9. daruma

    daruma Well-Known Member

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    great read. got several qs. pls correct when wrong

    1. to form the 'feather' the insole is skived, meaning that the insole is carved then the inside is scooped out?
    2. So say the insole is a quarter inch, after skiving, the crevice becomes 1/8"?
    3. from my understanding, gemming is the linen tape vulcanized onto the insole and this creates a sort of borde or crevice. is feathering an alternative to gemming? in a way, a natural version of gemming?
     
  10. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

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    London, UK
    1. to form the 'feather' the insole is skived, meaning that the insole is carved then the inside is scooped out?
    2. So say the insole is a quarter inch, after skiving, the crevice becomes 1/8"?
    3. from my understanding, gemming is the linen tape vulcanized onto the insole and this creates a sort of borde or crevice. is feathering an alternative to gemming? in a way, a natural version of gemming?


    The ‘feather’ is the ditch, the ‘holdfast’ is the dam.

    ‘Gemming’ is an alternative, industrial method to the hand-cut version.

    ‘Skiving’ is used for upper leathers where the edges get thinned-out to overlap cleanly.
     
  11. Loudly

    Loudly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    154
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    Apr 7, 2009
    They're both Sutors, right? I have the monks on the left -- bottom for some reason in the quote below -- and do not like them as much as I thought I would. A lot of that is down to the greenish brown colour, which I may fiddle with eventually. However the overall shape does not seem to work. Bought from STP basically sight unseen. However I have another pair of Sutors with the same sole and probably the same last, somewhat similar to the shoe on the right/top, which I really like. They have a chunkier presence than my usual English shoes, which works in a lot of situations (for instance they more easily make the leap from a suit shoe to a jeans shoe). These: [​IMG]
    Anyone else not like these square-toed looks? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    33,325
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    Oct 16, 2006
    Location:
    New York City
    They're both Sutors, right?

    I have the monks on the left -- bottom for some reason in the quote below -- and do not like them as much as I thought I would. A lot of that is down to the greenish brown colour, which I may fiddle with eventually. However the overall shape does not seem to work. Bought from STP basically sight unseen.

    However I have another pair of Sutors with the same sole and probably the same last, somewhat similar to the shoe on the right/top, which I really like. They have a chunkier presence than my usual English shoes, which works in a lot of situations (for instance they more easily make the leap from a suit shoe to a jeans shoe). These:

    [​IMG]


    I believe this welt is a norgevese welt, not a reverse welt. Am I wrong?
     
  13. Loudly

    Loudly Well-Known Member

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    I would have called it that. It's the same welt as the monk. A Harris calls it reverse, and I don't know enough to quibble. It would be interesting to find out.


    I believe this welt is a norgevese welt, not a reverse welt. Am I wrong?
     
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    great read. got several qs. pls correct when wrong 1. to form the 'feather' the insole is skived, meaning that the insole is carved then the inside is scooped out? 2. So say the insole is a quarter inch, after skiving, the crevice becomes 1/8"? 3. from my understanding, gemming is the linen tape vulcanized onto the insole and this creates a sort of borde or crevice. is feathering an alternative to gemming? in a way, a natural version of gemming?
    Bengal-Stripe's explanation is spot on. I would point out however that "vulcanization" is a process to treat natural, crude rubber to make it more durable and elastic. It has nothing to do with gemming. Gemming is the linen or canvas strip that is glued to the bottom of a thin, often synthetic...fiberboard or leatherboard...insole as the basic for goodyear welting. It is a common technique that is used in most commercially made shoes. It is inherently weaker than the traditional leather to leather connection as it relies on the glue, as well as the tensile strength and integrity of the canvas, to hold the shoe together....neither of which are in the same league as leather if strength, resilience, and longevity are the objectives.
     
  15. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Well-Known Member

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    ^ So just to be clear, you do not favor gemming?
     
  16. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Bengal-Stripe's explanation is spot on. I would point out however that "vulcanization" is a process to treat natural, crude rubber to make it more durable and elastic. It has nothing to do with gemming.

    Gemming is the linen or canvas strip that is glued to the bottom of a thin, often synthetic...fiberboard or leatherboard...insole as the basic for goodyear welting.

    It is a common technique that is used in most commercially made shoes.

    It is inherently weaker than the traditional leather to leather connection as it relies on the glue, as well as the tensile strength and integrity of the canvas, to hold the shoe together....neither of which are in the same league as leather if strength, resilience, and longevity are the objectives.


    So do Blake/Rapid constructed shoes not have gemming, therefore better constructed for RTW?
     
  17. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    New York City
    I would have called it that. It's the same welt as the monk. A Harris calls it reverse, and I don't know enough to quibble. It would be interesting to find out.

    This is a reverse, or "Storm" welt...

    [​IMG]
     
  18. daruma

    daruma Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    186
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    Feb 17, 2010
    The "˜feather' is the ditch, the "˜holdfast' is the dam.



    "˜Gemming' is an alternative, industrial method to the hand-cut version.

    "˜Skiving' is used for upper leathers where the edges get thinned-out to overlap cleanly.


    Great! Thanks for the info. May I ask where u got that drawing?
     
  19. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Jan 8, 2008
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    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    So do Blake/Rapid constructed shoes not have gemming, therefore better constructed for RTW?
    Blake/Rapid--sometimes, and perhaps more correctly called "Fairstitched"--is, like most shoe construction techniques, only as good as the materials used. If a substantial leather insole is used...not a thin "sock" over a fiberboard insole...Blake/Rapid is a very good way to make shoes. Perhaps not as easy to re-sole as handwelted but solid, flexible and capable of being worn daily for years and years and years. In my opinion...as a shoemaker...of all the ways to put together a shoe, handwelted is at the top and gemmed goodyear somewhere in the lower half...with cement sole and unit sole construction at the bottom. But, again, understand that materials are critical. A cement sole construction using quality leather insole, etc., might be considered as good as gemmed construction if the GY shoe is using a fiberboard insole. It's at least a toss-up.
     
  20. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. That makes sense.
     

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