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Shoe Porn: Norvegese, Bentivegna, Goyser, BIG Stitch & BIG Welts ONLY!

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by isshinryu101, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    maker me use do this.
    me want feather and he say no.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  2. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

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    ‘Norwegian’ and ‘Norvegese’ are essentially the same construction. In both cases is the upper folded to the outside (check those drawings again).


    The fact that quite a few Italian shoemakers (and possibly shoemakers in other parts of the world as well) never do cut a feather is a question of training and experience. They will not cut a feather for hand-welted work either. They have never been trained in that technique, or have at some later point decided this step being unnecessary. After a number of years they will be very good at poking the awl through the insole without the depth-guide of the inside feather.

    I neither read Italian, nor have I access to Italian shoemaking textbooks. so I don't know what is considered 'good practice' in traditional Italian shoemaking.

    Here is another Japanese illustration, which does show the use of a feather in ‘Norvegese’ construction

    [​IMG]

    “There are as many ways of making a shoe, as there are shoemakers” (Janne Melkersson)
     
  3. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    ah yes,
    you are right.
    Both norvegese and bentivegna can be done with feather moved to the edge to allow for out turn of upper,
    so norwegian can also be norvegese.
    Hmmm.
    Interesting how some maker make norwegian and norvegese different and other maker do it same way.

    Yes.
    Me have maker and me show him feather,
    he never see it before.
    He very good at poking awl through side of half of insole.
    Me like feather better,
    inseaming a new insole made more easy if inseam or insole get damage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  4. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    shoe construction guide
    goiser/reverse welt
    - upper join to welt and cut
    - L welt on out side
    - always a feather

    normal hand welted shoe
    - upper join to welt and cut
    - normal flat welt
    - can use a feather on edge or inside
    - not always use feather

    norvegese
    - out turned upper
    - flat bonwelt
    - can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
    - can be made with no feather
    (some maker do Norwegian struction same as Norvegese)

    bentivegna
    - out turned upper
    - L welt
    - can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
    - can be made with no feather

    Veldschoen
    - Out turned upper
    - Can use flat bonwelt or no bonwelt
    - In turned lining so always need feather little bit inside from edge like normal hand welted or goodyear welted shoe
    - Out turned outside of upper

    Blake rapid
    - In turned upper
    - Flat bonwelt
    - No feather ever

    Wood peg
    - upper join to welt
    - Flat welt but never stitch to mid or outsole on outside - only stitched to insole and glue to mid or outsole
    - Can do feather or no feather

    Important
    - Out turned upper always have feather on edge or use no feather
    - Goiser/reverse welt shoe always need a feather to join upper (it the only construction when outside upper need a feather ).
    - Veldschoen is only construction when lining is on turned and outer upper is out turned.
    - Wood peg is only construction when welt is glued to midsole or out sole.


    me think this right now.
    me check later to check it good.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  5. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    me think it done this way so the wood peg construction not get ruined,
    this very easy to ruin if leather still wet and wood peg not have time to swell.
    If shoe maker stitch welt to mid and outsoles after doing the wood peg it might cause it to get loose.
    Me think lt also hard to keep leather wet after maker let the wood peg construction dry,
    this mean stitching the outside of welt very very hard.
    That why me think man not do it.
    It only thing that make sense yes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  6. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Great info guys.
    This is an interesting question.

    Why would resoling a shoe with a feather be easier? Surely that's why you have a welt so you don't need to worry about the insole?

    I actually PMed DW on this a while ago and one of the things he said is that if you wear through the sole it's more likely to damage the inseam stitching, which would normally be protected in the feather channel.

    Piergiacomi channels a feather for his Norwegian stitched shoes but not for his regular handwelted ones - so it's not as if he doesn't know how to channel a feather.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  7. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    No sorry,
    it not make resole more easy,
    it make inseaming more easy if stitch to insole get damage.
    Re stitch to feather more easy.

    Re stitch to no feather can be more hard to put through old holes in insole because bristle need more curve motion and it can be more hard to put through.
    lf awl needed to re open hole the insole can also get damaged and lose it strongness.
    Re stitch to no feather take more skill to do.
     
  8. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Ah yep, that makes sense.

    A feather makes it easier to replace or restitch the welt in the event that it or the stitching becomes damaged.


    Actually when I look at the videos of Piergiacomi's norwegian welting, he creates a channel as the inside feather, and then closes the channel after inseam, almost like you'd do on an outsole.

    So many variations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  9. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Question:

    Norwegian, Veldschoen, Goiser, Bentivegna, even regular old storm welt proclaim to offer added water protection.

    I understand that in Veldschoen and Norwegian welting, the upper is turned out rather than in. Somehow, this is supposed to prevent water from wicking into the shoe?

    A storm welt has a physical barrier which I suppose prevents water on the welt from wicking into the inseam? Similarly, Bentivegna and goiser have the welt on the outside so water won't wick to the inseam, but it could still get in through the stitching, right?

    Surely the more natural path of water would be through the sole or through the upper anyway?

    Has anyone actually experienced water damage to the inseam of theirs shoes, or been exposed to water in such a way that goiser/bentivegna/storm welt etc constructions would have markedly improved the outcome of the shoe?

    The fact that Veldschoen and Goiser seem to derive from sports shoe construction gives a little credence to the argument, but I really can't see - physically, anyway- that these constructions would make much of a difference.
     
  10. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Great post, are you sure that the Bentivegna has an out turned upper? Does this fit underneath the L welt? Or does it just get shaved flat?



    I found a nice diagram on Veldtschoen construction from this blog..
    It looks like plain Veldtschoen is essentially cemented construction with a turned out upper.

    On the other hand, welted-Veldtschoen looks to have the upper turned out over the top of the welt

    [​IMG]

    I suppose the upshot of this is that there is no stitch that runs through the upper to the insole. Goiser, Bentivegna, plain handwelted, storm welt etc all have a stitch that runs through the upper into the insole, but this construction doesn't.

    It's feasible that this could make it more waterproof.
     
  11. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    This is a great list, we need to make some standard definitions for the purpose of discussion:
    [​IMG]

    In the picture:
    Norwegian (top left) - it has no welt. The inside and outside "feathers" are carved out to leave a pronounced holdfast ridge

    Norvegese (bottom right) - Stitching goes through the side of the insole. Therefore there is no need to carve an outside feather. It can occasionally have an inside feather to hide the stitches.

    Goiser - top right - there is a L shaped welt on the outside, and an inside and outside feather resulting in a normal holdfast. Called "Norwegian Welted" often because it's essentially Norwegian construction except an L shaped welt is added on the outside.

    (ignore bottom left, the holdfast is canvas i.e. gemmed)

    Also, braided stitching is usually a feature of all of these constructions but I don't want to go into the decorative side of this.

    Now what I'm not fully understanding is the "feather" business.

    My limited understanding is this:
    a normal welted shoe has feathers channeled out on either side of the "holdfast" which builds it up as a ridge. The outside feather gives a place for the in turned upper to lie flat, while the inside feather gives a place for the stitches to sit, somewhat protected.

    Norwegian stitched shoes also carve out an inside and outside feather.

    Norvegese stitched shoes stitch into the side of the insole, so there is no need for an outside feather: Bengal Stripe's diagram shows a Norvegese stitched shoe with an inside feather
    [​IMG]

    Then we could say:

    Norwegian: has inside and outside feather.
    Norwegese: inseam is stitched through side of insole, may or may not have an inside feather, never an outside feather
    Goiser: Norwegian except has L shaped welt on outside
    Bentivegna: Norvegese except has L shaped welt on outside.


    So Norwegian carves out an inside and an outside feather, as does goiser, but Norvegese and Bentivegna always stitch through the side of the insole.


    Problem with this:

    Koronya shows him making a Norwegian shoe without an outside channel (except in the waist area). Now, I'd be happy enough to call this Norvegese, except that he also says that Goiser is exactly the same but with an added L shaped welt on the outside.

    so, Son of Saphir, what is it that leads you to believe that Goiser has a feather further inside than Bentivegna?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  12. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    Yes.


    Yes.

    Never shaves flat for Bentivegna.
    Reverse welted does get shaved flat.

    Look like some maker do it different way.
    Many maker still gem lining under shoe.

    lt different way again.
    Could be to keep water out better so it not collect between welt.
    Me think welt on top look more good.

    lt could be possible.
    Veldtschoen construction is more for work boot and casual shoe so it make sense
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  13. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    No need to hide stitches.
    Like norwegian picture,
    it make no sense to put feather further in with turned out upper. :puzzled:


    "Goiser" and "norwegian welted" same.
    Vass do Goiser little different from "norwegian welted" picture because extra stitch attached welt to mid sole but it still same thing.

    Feather is the holdfast or a ridge,
    .

    see above post here

    Norvegese can use no feather or it can use outside feather.

    never

    no feather or outside feather.
    if norvegese like norwegian diagram it will have inside feather but this make no sense to me because it has out turned upper.


    almost,
    but upper is turned out with norwegian and upper is cut off with Goiser.
    Me wonder if norwegian picture is correct,
    it seem wrong to me. :puzzled:

    Yes.

    only one feather

    Yes,
    and it can use feather on edge.

    Goiser can not be made that way because upper is not turned out and upper is cut off with goiser.
    The koronya feather show it norvegese or could be bentivegna,
    but it is almost same as Goiser and me see how Koronya say Goiser can be like Norvegese because basic stitching method can be same .



    lt does not (me correct previous post)
    Bentivegna have out turned upper so it need feather on edge of sole.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  14. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Ah ok cool.

    I think I'm getting it.

    The Koronya post was confusing me. We will call the construction he is using "Norvegese".


    according to DW, the Holdfast is not the same as a feather:

    so using these definitions:

    Norwegian
    : has inside channel and outside feather. Upper is turned out. (why does it have an outside feather if the upper is turned out?)*
    Norvegese: Like Norwegian except inseam is stitched through side of insole so it won't have an outside feather. may or may not have an inside channel.
    Goiser: Norwegian except has L shaped welt on outside, and the upper is turned inside, like normal handwelting
    Bentivegna: Like Norvegese in that the stitching enters through the side of the insole, except has L shaped welt on outside. So, like Norvegese, it will have no outside feather, but can have an inside channel.


    *Alternatively, if Norwegian has no outside feather, what is the difference between Norwegian and Norvegese?

    The more I read over your post the less difference I can tell between Norwegian and Norwegese. Could you explain this please?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  15. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    me make changes to post above about goiser and reverse welt and normal hand welt shoe.
    it make more sense now.

    me re read post above and correct some mistake in writing.
    me say feather is not a ridge,
    do not know why l said that.
    A feather IS a ridge.

    True.
    Feather needs to be carved out.
    Holdfast is attached.
    Both have same function but they created different.

    me change post above.
    "Goiser" and "norwegian welted" is same but Vass do little variation with extra stitch through welt and mid sole.

    me get to rest of thread later.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  16. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    No I think this is not true.

    The "holdfast" is the ridge.

    A "feather" is the valley running around the outside.

    The "inner channel" is the valley running around the inside.

    like this:
    _^_
    the left _ is the outer feather that the turned in upper would lie on.
    the ^ is the holdfast.
    the right _ is the inner channel that the inseamed stitching row lies in.

    DWFII sent me a pm with this, talking about these photos:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Many do the goiser like this.

    I still haven't seen a picture of Goiser or Norwegian construction where there is both an outside feather and an inside channel (i.e. the ridge is further in and not near the edge, like you claim).

    I can only find real images of norwegian construction where there is no outer feather, only an inside channel.

    I can't find any images like the top left of the japanese diagram, where there is an inner channel as well as an outer feather.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    More confirmation of this from the Carreducker blog:

    i.e. there is an inside channel but no outside feather.

    So the japanese diagram, unless we see other evidence, is misleading.

    But do you still believe that the goiser construction has an outer feather as well as an inner channel, and the ridge is further in from the edge?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  18. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    Just so we're not without porn amidst this discussion:

    #08 shell longwings with a Bentivegna welt. It really acts like a bumper bar and picks up most of the abuse from daily wear. Need to pick up some edge dressing...but I kinda like that all the scuffs show up along the welt.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. LEE DONG JUN

    LEE DONG JUN Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Santoni limited edition AFRO chukka boots:D
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. LEE DONG JUN

    LEE DONG JUN Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Santoni Limited edition
     

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