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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Well-Known Member

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    Here are a few diagrams I've kept on hand that show the differences (the first one is a commonly understood norwegian):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Anthony Delos has a couple of videos on youtube where he is making a pair of Norwegian sewn boots, and that puts the diagram in better perspective.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  2. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

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    Don't get hung-up on a name! - You can make any shoe, whether the construction is welted, Norwegian or Goyser, as subtle or as garish oops bold as you like. Play it the other way round: find pictures of a construction you like and which you think would be stylistically appropriate for your next pair. Let Nicholas work out how to do it.

    To come back to Veldtschoen: As far as I know, it employs a welt and then attaches the sole by stitching through the turned-out upper, welt and sole;showing only one row of stitching. Norwegian will show two, maybe even three. It might be possible to achieve the Veldtschoen look in a fully handmade shoe.. While in a conventional welted construction you stitch upper and lining leather together with the welt into place, you might be able to just catch the lining together with the welt, but leave the upper leather free. Once the welt is is fixed, you last the upper on top the welt, using a bone knife to get a sharp crease and fixing it (with glue or tacks, I suppose). Then you stitch on the sole and you will have only one row of stitches showing.

    Whether or not Nicholas feels that will work and if he is willing to employ a so far untried technique on a pair of paid-for shoes, that is up to him to decide.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  3. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, MWS and Bengal. Appreciate the feedback.

    I think Bengal might be right. Probably best to not get too hung up on terminology. I get the impression that different shoemakers use these terms differently anyway.

    Will send Nicholas a photo of the Veld boots I'm interested in. Whatever he thinks is best for that sounds good for that.

    Thanks again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  4. Zapasman

    Zapasman Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if this is the right thread, but I know I will find here the right answer. I bought a boot that was size 9 uk and, for some reasons, it was later relasted to a 8.5 uk size to acommodate my foot. I know that a 8.5 uk last was receiving a 9 uk size cutted upper so here is one of the the problems: the facing and the shaft of the boot is loose: too much leather excess, the facings are too close to each other and the boot makes some waves all over the shaft. I know it is my fault.

    So the question goes; Is there any easy way/trick/solution to improve the fitting of those areas without dismantelling the boot and starting to cut a new 8.5uk upper?. I know my cobbler won´t work the uppers and to take them to a maker/cutter is not a possible sotution for me. Any in house remedy?[​IMG]

    I will kindly accept just a NO or SELL THEM as a gentle answer.

    Some pics to illustrate.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Thanks.
     
  5. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Difficult, if not impossible, IMO..

    Sell them.

    Caveat...since they were relasted to your measurements, the new owner has to have a foot that is the same length but a width or two larger than your foot and a beefier ankle and calf. Might be a needle in a haystack.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  6. Zapasman

    Zapasman Well-Known Member

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    Thanks DW. I just wanted to hear that from any of you makers. [​IMG]
     
  7. dopey

    dopey Well-Known Member

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    This is a combination leather/construction question. What leather and construction would the makers here recommend for a shoe/boot intended to be worn in city winters, where they will be subject to snow, ice and slush and, worse of all, road salt? Can anything be expected to perform well in those conditions and not dry out and crack? If reasonable care is required, e.g., wipe clean, occasional conditioning, that is o.k. Complicated care, like frequent soaks in vinegar solution followed by ph testing and heating with conditioners is not o.k.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  8. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Most kinds of oil stuffed leathers will perform satisfactorily...but don't expect a shine.
     
    2 people like this.
  9. Nick V.

    Nick V. Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the oil stuffed. You may want to consider a Vibram -or- Dainite sole with a storm welt as well.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. bibbert2

    bibbert2 Member

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    I would go one further and say that Horween's kudu oil stuffed leather is ideal for snow and salt with very little maintenance. I bought a pair of alden chukkas in this leather at the recommendation of the staff at O'Connells in Buffalo (who know a thing or two about winter weather). They also have a vibram sole and storm welt. I've had them for about 4 years and have yet to do more than wipe off the salt and buff with a brush. The only downside is heavy creasing due to the softness of this oily leather. I have often wondered whether this type of leather could be used on dressier lasts/shoes that work better with tailored clothing - I have yet to see it done.
     
  11. dopey

    dopey Well-Known Member

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  12. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    In my experience simple pebble grain, or scotch grain (or any stamped grain for that matter) works well in snow. I have a pair of boots Ron Rider made for me years ago in scotch grain that I wear exclusively in the snow and they are still looking great, in fact they are wearing better than my shoes that don't get wet, get conditioned, and love. Go figure. I guess the stamping of the grain seals the pores and such. Admittedly if they get very dirty after daily use for a while when it gets bad, I clean them off, use reno and bull the toes and heel.

    Then there is the corrected-grain boogeyman option...
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    2 people like this.
  13. duncanbootmaker

    duncanbootmaker Well-Known Member

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    Morning All,
    As this thread is ‘Behind the Veil’, I thought you might be interested in how I re-ferbished my personal pair of shoes, as the way they are constructed directly relates to what I was able to do with them.

    [​IMG]



    I made this pair a bit over a year ago (on the first lasts I'd made, and they need some altering), and in that time I have worn them for around 5,100 hours, around the house, in the garden, feeding the animals, walking (and sometimes running if I’m late) down the street, moving furniture, welding (though just the once; I thought better of it after that [​IMG] ) etc. To put that into a days context, that’s 14 hours per day, 7 days a week for the last 365 days. If they were used as dress shoes for two evenings a week, at 7 hours each night, that’s 7 years worth of wear. There are a lot of dirt and rocks in our area and, though I have tried to be aware of where my feet were, there have been the odd miss-haps with them with people stepping on the toes, and I put a steel filing cabinet down too close to myself......
    We were due to exhibit at a ‘Lost Trades Fair’ and I wanted to be able to show them ‘as worn’ and ‘re-furbished’. I use Saphir Dark Brown polish on them, and so to remove it I used paper towelling, dampened with Pure Turps (pine turpentine), trying not to make the leather too wet with it.
    DW and I use leather to make our toe puffs (boxes) and heel stiffeners. This, combined with the Herschkleber Paste I use to bond and stiffen them, means that it is possible to soak them down and re-shape them. The vamp on this pair isn’t lined (Summer shoes) but the quarters are. In order to, originally, keep the toe puff in place, I used a thin bead of latex glue along it’s skived leading edge (going across near the root of my toes) sticking it to the inside of the vamp. This isn’t water soluble once dry, and bonds well. The rest was liberally coated in the paste. As the quarters are lined I just pasted inside the quarters and lining, and both sides of the counter (stiffener) and slipped it in place prior to lasting. If heat, or solvent activated, synthetic stiffeners had been used, I don’t think much could be done to re-shape them

    These photos show the bulk of the polish removed and the darkish line going across the tip of the toe is where the filing cabinet caught them.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    And a side view. The one on the left is re-furbished, the right is after all the little miss-haps of every day wear.

    [​IMG]


    Several weeks after I’d first made them I accidentally stepped on the back of the right shoe in the dark, when I got up in the middle of the night. That was disappointing…

    [​IMG]



    It took about 3/4hour of squirting, and rubbing in, water, inside and out, in the toe and heel areas for the leather to become soft enough for me to be confident the paste had liquified and the re-forming would work smoothly. Bodes well for if I get caught in the rain. I talced the insides of the shoes, as the paste does soak through the leather to some extent (not something you notice in wearing), and re-fitted my lasts.
    A couple of smooth bones were used to rub out the wrinkles (esp. in the heel areas) and generally smooth the leather and re-profile the toes.
    After shot of the crushed toe above.

    [​IMG]



    The arch area had taken a bit of a beating, and the design was no longer easy to see, so I scraped back the surface,

    [​IMG]

    Re-burnished in ‘resist’ lines ( to provide a bit of a barrier to the leather dye) with a bone ‘stitch prick’ tool,

    [​IMG]

    Then re-dyed, and used hot tools and brown ‘Parade Gloss’ and Neutral shoe polish to finish.

    [​IMG]



    Open to suggestions on improving the shank area [​IMG] There were a lot of ‘dings’ and dirt.

    The edges of the soles and stacked heels were scraped and sanded and old edging irons, dipped in brown Parade Gloss polish, brought into play to improve the edge finish. I was experimenting when I first made these, and was low on soling leather, so the heels, sole and internal shank are just made out of hammered insole leather. As such it’s a bit harder to get a crisp square edge around the sole, but the shank has shown no inclination to ‘drop’ in the arch. New heel rubbers and treads were also put on.

    This is the crushed heel I showed above.

    [​IMG]

    Based on a comment I remember from one of my 1800’s shoemaking books (though couldn’t find it when I tried to double check), I wiped a coat of thin paste over the outside of the quarters and toes, when they were majority dry, and then wiped the surplice off with a damp cloth. I think this should provide a little extra rigidity and a smother surface. Saphir Mahogany shoe-cream went on first, and buffed off, followed by Saphir Dark Brown polish. I think the level of shine, from my basic, quick polishing, is better than when I first made them.

    [​IMG]


    I did not re-dye the uppers, as a result of which there is a slight ‘antiquing’ of the colouration where there were wrinkles and the turps had taken more of my original dye off. See previous heel photo above.

    I haven’t tried this level of re-furbishment before, but the results are very encouraging. And, yes, there are moulded ‘ankle bumps’ in the upper [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    I hope this has been interesting, and not too much of a marathon.
    Thank you for your time.
    Cheers
    Duncan
     
    17 people like this.
  14. Shikar

    Shikar Well-Known Member

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    Phenomenal and thanks for taking us along.

    Regards.
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Duncan, that is awesome. What kind of uppers are those?
     
  16. duncanbootmaker

    duncanbootmaker Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Shikar and Patrick.
    The uppers are all Veg. Kangaroo, as are the heel and toe stiffeners. Even though Packer Tannery's 'roo is very soft, it has worked out OK for this task. Recently, on the recommendation of a fellow shoemaker, Brendan Dwyer, I have bought a veg. 'roo from another tannery, specifically for heels and toes as it is quite stiff to begin with; the difference is like cloth verses card. I'm looking forward to using it on my up-comming orders. See comparison photo below; I'm holding the two hides in the same way and place.
    Cheers

    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.
  17. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Duncan,

    Great set of posts.

    Re: the stiff 'roo...care to share?
     
  18. duncanbootmaker

    duncanbootmaker Well-Known Member

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    There's a tannery near the regional city of Ballarat (State of Victoria, Aust.), called Greenhalgh, that still tan with Wattle bark ( an Australian native tree). Their bovine hides are quite malleable and have a fine texture (I use it for insoles etc), but the 'roo hides, for some reason, are quite hard. I ruled out using their 'roo, years ago, on account of this characteristic, until Brendan Dwyer told me he used it for heel and toe stiffeners. "Duh" moment [​IMG] The hide, above post, will see me through quite a few pair.
    Cheers
     
  19. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Ballerat...interesting, that's where the Dr. Blake series was filmed. Still waiting for him to propose to Jean. :rolleyes:
     
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    BTW...your signature, Duncan, is spot on.
     

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