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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. NORE

    NORE Well-Known Member

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    Because gemming is teh :drool:

    Sorry to say but crafting handmade/bespoken shoos is a dying art.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  2. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Nope I am not the expert. But I do know a few shoe manufacturers.

    DC Lewis. Made in Taiwan/Vietnam.

    Glued rubber sole is the standard, goodyear welt is high quality standard nowadays. The slippery slope that DWII talked about.

    Its easier to tool for Mckay/Blake than to tool for goodyear welt or blake rapid. I know people who hand cut (w/ scissor), hand last, but uses one single Blake machine to sew on shoes, with channel soles.
     
  3. Shikar

    Shikar Well-Known Member

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    Not this is what style is about!!!
    The quest for knowledge and gentlemen like DW who are willing to educate us!!
    THANKS!!

    Regards.
     
  4. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    they might, but they don't know how to make any lasts. they do know how to adjusts fittings like st crispins tho.
     
  5. ThinkDerm

    ThinkDerm Well-Known Member

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    I've got some DWF's inbound... test pair has landed.
     
    2 people like this.
  6. mr monty

    mr monty Well-Known Member

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  7. SHS

    SHS Well-Known Member

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    I am a bit confused about goyser, bentivegna and norwegian welted construction. Is it the same? Is it hand- or machine made? If machine made, does it use gemming?
     
  8. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

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  9. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Bentivegna is different than Norwegian/Norvegese in the sense that it uses a welt AFAIK. It's constructed exactly the same as Reverse Welted or Norwegian Welted. The difference between Reverse Welted and Norwegian Welted is the former uses gemming and the latter uses holdfast. Since they are exactly the same except for the gemming, it is very hard to say if Bentivegna actually uses gemming or not. The easiest tell-tale sign is look for a hand sewn stitching at the top row (bottom row is stitching from welt to outsole).

    Bentivegna could also be done with front half folded out and starting at the waist, folded in.

    Goyser looks the same as welted Norwegian/Reverse welted construction. Again, it could go both ways. Pretty sure Vass did it without gemming.

    Gemming or not, they could all have a machine stitched outsole, which is far inferior to hand stitched/sewn outsole.

    Norwegian constructions have midsole instead of a welt, and its a turn-out folded-out construction. It does need a holdfast. And due to the lack of welts, it has to be hand sewn. It could use gemming in place of holdfast but due to the hand sewn requirement, it makes most sense to just use a holdfast since using gemming won't save much time in manufacturing.

    To summarize, it could go both ways, but welted construction is prime for gemming while hand sewn norwegian constructions have more rationale for holdfast/feather. And welted construction is sewn using welting machine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  10. SHS

    SHS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies. Bengal, I remember that thread for the great pictures, but I don't remember if there was much talk of the various constructions?

    Chogall, is the "reverse welted" construction you talk about the same as "veldtschoen construction"? I hadn't even concidered that Vass could use gemming for their goyser welt. They probably don't, but I don't know. Also, are you saying that there is a difference between "norwegian welted construction" and "norwegian construction"? I am still a bit confused, although on a higher level now. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  11. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    If you look through the thread, we end up discussing construction in some detail. It gets somewhat resolved towards the end, but it can be pretty confusing.

    Vass does not use gemming in any of their shoes.

    There are what i'd call fake bentivegna and norwegian constructions in that the actual stitching is superfluous and not part of the integral structure of the shoe.
     
  12. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Here's a good old illustration from the previous incarnation of LAST magazine for your confusion. Veldtschoen construction is turn out and stitched down, without welt, according to the Japs. But most Veldtschoen shoes I've seen have welt. Remember the Japanese are much more industrial and scientific, with a passion to characterize everything.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. SHS

    SHS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Hendrix, I will read through the thread again. I'm glad you could reassure me that Vass doesn't use gemming, and I will try to stay far far away from purely decorative stitching.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  14. SHS

    SHS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Chogall, but I don't have the knowledge to draw any conclusions from those diagrams. My question arose because I have been looking at hiking boots, and saw some double stitched models claiming to be handcrafted here:

    http://www.hanwag.de/schuh-kategorie.php?cat_id=8

    The boots are relatively cheap compared to other handcrafted boots, e. g. Vass, so I'm not sure how good the construction is, and wondered if the stitching could be made by machine, and use gemming.
     
  15. SHS

    SHS Well-Known Member

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  16. jeeef

    jeeef New Member

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    has anyone ever heard of the tyrolese welt, any pictures or descriptions are much appreciated
     
  17. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    depending on who you talk to, tyrolese is either the same thing as goiser welting, or bentivegna welting. Both are pretty similar to each other.
     
  18. vmss

    vmss Well-Known Member

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    I'm also curious about this. Nobody has answered or reacted this question. Of this method is so flawed and all the companies and consumers are aware of this matter, why would they just simply use Blake or Blake rapid method ?
     
  19. vmss

    vmss Well-Known Member

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    "Why has goodyear welting become almost a standard in RTW shoemaking if it has all of these inherent problems? I don't understand why shoe manufacterers don't just use blake/rapid construction which has the benefits of stitching, but none of the time, money and skill constraints of handwelting? Makes no sense to me "Patrickboot

    I'm also curious about this. Nobody has answered or reacted on this question. If the goodyear method is so flawed and all the companies and consumers are aware of this matter, why would they just simply use Blake or Blake rapid method ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  20. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Essentially because "Goodyear welting" has some sort of marketing cache. Many manufacturers of blake rapid use cheap, thin, insoles that may not even be leather to get around using a proper insole.
     
    1 person likes this.

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