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shoe construction...behind the veil

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Leather sole with cleats but it depends a lot on the theater. Leggings with shoes, not boots.

    And mid WW2 most field boots changed into rubber or synthetic outsoles. Life saving.
     
  2. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    Marginally. Coming from a guy whom doesn't understand manufacturing, throughout, yield, QC points. Marginally this, marginally that, and marginally your imaginary manufacturer will go out of business from lack of margins.

    HW isn't the problem but tropical storm? So being water tight excludes tropical storms, wading, etc? What now, HW is water resistant onlyin environments with little water?

    Makes great sense! Let divert the attention away and classify normal conditions as fringe cases!
     
  3. makewayhomer

    makewayhomer Well-Known Member

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    a handwelted or goodyear welted or any sort of welted or stitched leather shoe can be water resistant, but if you want it to be waterproof you're gonna need a genie to grant that wish. any stitched construction marketed as "waterproof" is wrong.

    if you want waterproof, you're gonna need one continous piece of rubber wrapped around your foot. like Hunter Boots. you want leather shoes to perform like that and I want my Honda to be a Ferrari but that ain't happening.

    square peg, round hole.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    2 people like this.
  4. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Chogall, no offence meant at all by this question, but are you using a web translator, like Google translate or some such, to translate from another language?
     
  5. Whirling

    Whirling Well-Known Member

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    Do we all have to be so gosh-darned catty around here?

    Chogall's English is plenty good enough. The topic of correct terminology is rather distinct and is a more interesting one.

    I am certain there are people with tremendous expertise on footwear who speak little or no English.

    Seriously, people seem to prefer fighting to footwear. Could we not all follow the Golden Rule and treat one another as we would wish to be treated?
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    I believe my question was to Chogall, not you. However, as I am not the first to remark on Chogall's use of English, indeed remarks have been made in some most virulent ways in this thread by those who know much about shoemaking and should know better, I'm rather taken aback that you should have responded to me in such a way and yet not dared to do so to others. A certain lack of courage no doubt! Actually, I was merely going to give Chogall, in the case that his/her response was in the affirmative, some professional advice on available translation tools so that we could benefit from her/his contributions more, many very pertinant in an increasing desert of opinions, in which any dissenting view is slagged off mercilessly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Well, be that as it may, I do understand that "out put , throughout, yield, QC points" are the buzz words--canon and gospel--of the factory mentality. And that "quality" and "excellence" are not among them...nor really even a consideration except as bait.

    As far as the tropical storm and HW is concerned, no one here has said...and no one with any connection to reality expects...that any leather shoe will be waterproof or water tight. I guess you missed that point.

    I have walked through puddles,crossed small streams and waded in the ocean in HW shoes and boots and never did my feet get wet. Did I stand there watching the sun go down, allowing the leather to get saturated? No, I didn't. I have a sense of proportion and a solid grasp of reality.

    But the point is that while the leather got somewhat wet, it didn't get inside the boot. Suggesting that the construction was as water resistant as can be realistically expected.

    I suspect you could substitute Blake, Blake-Rapid, GY, turned out construction, storm welt, double soles, rubber soles or even double rubber soles...what have you...for the HW shoes in your fiasco with the tropical storm and the results would have been the same.

    --
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  8. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that you are, at least obliquely, referring to me. Why didn't you just say it to me?..."a certain lack of courage, no doubt?" As is the penchant to take issue with the way people say things rather than what they have said. Style vs substance, again.

    I do my best to wade through the incoherence I encounter here on occasion--to tolerate it and try to decipher the meaning and intent...and answer with patience, respect and good will. People just have to tolerate my personality and my occasional impatience as I tolerate them. It's little enough to ask--mutual respect.

    There is a long history between chogall and I...and I tire of it.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  9. Whirling

    Whirling Well-Known Member

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    I was, of course, aware that your question was directed toward Chogall, but you made it in a public forum, so it is open to comment by all.

    I have commented on other people's hostility, as well. As you are apparently referring to DW, you can read prior posts and see that I have made critical comments regarding his style of debate too. I show DW some more deference than other members of this forum because he has so much experience, mainly professional experience, and has chosen to share it with us all for free.

    Not counting issues related to terminology, I have never had difficulty understanding Chogall. I don't get too worked up over typos and such because this is a not a place that requires formal language, in my opinion. I really doubt that he is using any type of translation tool, but if he is, perhaps he would value your suggestions. If that had been your primary intent, why not just names the tools? Or, better yet, send him the information in a private message? If you were worried about offending him, the odds would be much lower had you not commented on his language in public.

    Why are you commenting on my courage? You don't know me at all. This is the type of personal attack that has no place here. You will not find my post attacking you in such a manner. You will only find it commenting on what you said here.
     
  10. Whirling

    Whirling Well-Known Member

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    DW,

    I read this thread to hear what you have to say based on your first-hand, direct experience. It is tremendously interesting to me.

    If Chogall is a troll, which I don't think is the case, expressing anger with him is only making him happy. If he is not a troll, but rather someone sharing what he truly believes to be the case, your anger won't educate him, and it apparently isn't making him go away.

    My humble suggestion would be to ignore all insults from chogall. When he says something you know to be wrong or misleading, point that out for all of us, citing your experience on the matter. This may be repetitive, but so are all the insults, back and forth.

    If there are people reading this thread who cannot appreciate what you have to offer, then I don't think virtual shouting will get them to do so. Some people just can't be helped. If they can't recognize the value of your experience, I am sure they have bigger problems than paying too much for GYW footwear.
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a real need for some people to start their own thread...I said this before and even offered to stay out of it. But that would spoil all the fun for some people.

    That said, I know how to end all this dissension...although I doubt it will go over well...here's what I propose:

    I'll try to remember to preface all my remarks with something along the order of "In my professional opinion..." or " From the perspective of having made shoes for 45 years, day in and day out..."

    And those who insist on questioning my experience or my integrity or truthfulness, or the sincerity of my offerings, can preface theirs with 'In my personal experience..." or 'I don't know anything about shoemaking but..."

    This way we can each have our say and let the angels and the reader sort it out as to who is right and who is wrong...who has more credibility and who they want to believe. No need for any back and forth.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  12. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I hear you. I agree.

    But with all due respect, look how long I have been here and how many posts I have. It's always the same people or type of people. And it's been a long, long time having to deal with it. Eventually, it comes home to you that people who are inclined to trouble-make only take courage when you don't respond. As you responded to thelonious. And eventually polite, patient responses give way to testy responses, just because of the "same old, same old" of it.

    Stick around, after you've been called a liar in every possible way--tacit and overt, had the effort and generosity of your efforts dismissed out of hand, or had your courage questioned enough times, you'll change your tune.

    IMO....personal, not professional
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  13. Testudo_Aubreii

    Testudo_Aubreii Well-Known Member

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    I, as one who is sadly ignorant about these matters, appreciate DWF's generosity in taking the time to educate me about them. DWF, could I try your generosity one more time and ask for your thoughts on the durability of this cut-and-turn gemmed hand-welting used in the Tramezza video? Would
    you rate it a 5 like you did Weston's machine Goodyear cut-and-turn, or does it rate higher because of what you said was the ability to use a shoemaker's stitch and to wax the thread? Thanks.

     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  14. Whirling

    Whirling Well-Known Member

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    I actually think the above plan might work. We can't make people preface their remarks. However, if you prefeace your remarks and they don't, most thread readers will learn to recognize the difference.




    I am as prone or more prone to taking offense and getting angry as most men. I cannot imagine how you have put up with so much. You have plenty of reason to be angry and disgusted. You are justified in being disgusted by people's inability or unwillingness to acknowledge your experience actually making shoes versus other people buying them and reading about them. However, and I have not been here long, so I may be mistaken, your railing against the inanity of others doesn't do much of any good and may, sadly, discredit your experience with some people. Some people hear anger and, rather than determining whether it is justified, simply dismiss the source of the anger as a "disturbed individual."

    Again, I value your contribution to this forum above all others. I am writing this, humbly, to propose experimenting with a different strategy. Obviously, I might be completely wrong.

    Ideally, we could all disagree vehemently about footwear without ever making personal attacks against one another. Of course, we all have failings. We are all sinners. It is not that there aren't things to criticize in one another; it is because there are so many that we need to avoid the criticism of each other's character.

    I know next-to-nothing about footwear and want to learn more without having to experience quite as much hostility.
     
  15. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Well, you may have noticed I started prefacing at least some of my remarks with "In my professional opinion..." some days ago. And if you've gotten into other threads that are not about shoemaking and seen my occasional...very occasional...posts there, you know I generally say something along the order of "personal opinion only". I often, no matter where I'm at say "IMO..."Although that could be regarded as a placeholder. Still, I don't see much in the way of reciprocity, esp. in these threads, (present company excepted.).

    Or course that's just my personal experience...
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  16. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Yes, probably on the same order as the Westons stuff, in my professional opinion. Simply because as I said earlier, HW benefits from the shoemaker's stitch and the pine pitch based hand wax, but it really is a gestalt--a sum greater than its parts.

    And really, I don't mind answering questions...that's why I'm here. I'm 70 and I've had my day in the sun. Time to pay it forward as well as I can.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  17. Whirling

    Whirling Well-Known Member

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    DW,

    Humbly, I suggest being more explicit. In every one of your posts, I would state how many years you have been involved with making and repairing footwear, as well as stating approximately how many pairs of footwear you have made and/or repaired. You might also inform your readers to be cautious when considering rebuttals from people who will not describe their experience or whose experience is significantly less than yours. Then, you just need to leave it up to the readers to decide for themselves.

    It may be beneficial for readers for you to ask sincerely how someone came across a particular piece of information of which you are suspicious. However, it probably is less helpful to repeatedly complain that somebody is making statements with little or no basis in real world experience. Again, if readers of the thread want to value an opinion based on a factory tour or trunk show as highly as descriptions of hands-on professional experience, then those readers are beyond help--at least for the time being.

    If you become too frustrated with people's behavior on this forum, post a question asking whether we value and respect your input. I think you will get more than enough positive responses to reaffirm for yourself the value of the time you put in here.
     
  18. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Listen, I have done all that. In fact, I think it is waving a red flag to some extent. One that may, at times, be necessary in the face of intransigence. The problem is that is draws 'em...like moths to a flame.

    But just for instance, not too long ago--within the last week or so(?)--one of these guys was chewing on my leg because I was "Dubiously Honored (DH). Nevermind that I had nothing to say about that. (In fact, I jokingly mentioned the "dubious" part when I was informed--don't get me wrong I appreciate it).

    Beyond that, it's simply not my way. I yam what I yam. Which is, when all is said and done, probably just "convenient"--until someone better comes along, IOW.

    But, having said that, I'm not insensible to, nor ungrateful for, the numerous supporters (far more numerous than the detractors) who deal with me like they themselves would like to be dealt with and without pretense. Point of fact, the reason I was "Dubiously Honored" is, if I understand the system correctly, because of the number of "thumbs up" I have received. It's worth noting (in gratitude, I have) that a person cannot give themselves a thumbs up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    2 people like this.
  19. Nick V.

    Nick V. Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea. I'm certainly on board with it.
    Thanks for the suggestion....

    BTW.....DW posted an interesting article about awls today in the "Shoe-making techniques and traditions.....These foolish things". If you haven't seen it, it's worth the look.
    The pictures show hand tools that look like antiques. They're not, they were made new and still used today. They certainly have blood, sweat and maybe some tears on 'em.
    They belong in a museum some day.

    It's one thing to write about this stuff it's another to do the work -or- be exposed to those that do it successfully every day for four decades.

    DW, question, when you write that you turned the handles on some of those awls, did you do them by hand -or with a lathe?
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I did my first couple of handles...believe it or not with two nails stuck in the ends of a block of wood, a pair of gloves to hold the nails and a finisher. Don't laugh.

    Eventually I got a cheap lathe, and began to learn...mostly teaching myself from books and just immersion in it. Then I got a small Jet and ended up with a lot of really expensive chisels.

    I was never all that good. But I did do several pieces that I was esp. proud of. (see below) before the dust got to me. I had a "professional" dust collector and an expensive filter mask but old lungs couldn't handle the dust. Plus there was micro-fine dust all over the shop. Every time I'd sweep I'd cough.

    Anyway...for giggles:

    Here's an applewood vase I did. The walls are about an eighth inch tick all the way down. Applewood is tricky and can check very easily. I'm probably the proudest of this. 6"x 4"

    [​IMG]


    Here's a maple hollow form that I did. It had some shake in the block but I turned all of it off. Walls uniformly about 1/4 inch. 5"x7"

    [​IMG]


    And here's a green turn from I don't know what wood--it was scrap for practice. Bark on. The distortion was anticipated and hoped for. Walls about 1/8" inch 7" high, almost 9" wide.

    [​IMG]

    And finally a big black locust bowl... about 8" or 9" across. Stuff is hard. I loved it but after being used as a salad bowl for a few years--washed and maybe not dried completely, it cracked. She still uses it for a salad bowl but I'm afraid for it.

    [​IMG]

    As for tool handles I've done a goodly number. Sold them for a while.

    And thank you for the kind words.

    :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
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