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Random health and exercise thoughts

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by Eason, Dec 20, 2009.

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  1. LM16

    LM16 Well-Known Member

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    Neglecting your arms in terms of strength isn't particularly smart. Training your arms are indeed important from a "strength point of view". Keeps your elbows healthy, helps your lockout on bench, helps your grip for deadlift.
     
  2. LM16

    LM16 Well-Known Member

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    Very few compound movements take the elbow joint through the maximum range of motion. Further very few compound movements can help fix imbalances and usually are creating them.
     
  3. Axelman 17

    Axelman 17 Well-Known Member

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    Only peripherally related but am thinking about giving up squats, only training lower body with DLs. I just enjoy doing DLs much more - I find the lift itself more fun and I like the activation it is hitting vs. a squat. I also have had groin/hip flexor issues so giving up squats will lighten the load on that area.

    What am I giving up by foregoing squats and DLing 2x a week? I dont have huge strength goals when it comes to lower body, would just like to tone quads/glutes/hamstrings. If I can get some stronger abs as well, that would be a nice perk.
     
  4. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm a little confused by this claim. How does a clean and jerk (or even just a push jerk) not take the elbow through a full range of motion? In fact, I'm pretty sure a clean and jerk takes your elbows through a full range of motion TWICE. Bar starts on ground with elbow in full extension. At the end of the clean, elbow is in full flexion. At the end of the jerk, elbow is back to full extension. Full range of motion. Ta da.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  5. LM16

    LM16 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough - I was talking more about the powerlifts - and it's also why I didn't say "ALL compound lifts fail to take the elbow through full ROM". Though to be fair C&J the primary focus of getting the weight overhead is coming from your leg drive and while it does take it through the full range of motion it doesn't do crap for improving bench (which ultimately is what I care about as a powerlifter). I'm not a huge proponent of the olympic lifts in general due to 99% of people doing them wrong. They are extremely technical lifts that really should be overseen by an actual olympic lifting coach (not some crossfit certified guy that can't C&J 225). That being said, that is all irrelevant to the point you made. Isolation exercises, in particular unilaterally loaded isolation exercises are still paramount for strength athletes in terms of fixing imbalances. Compound lifts - bilateral ones (which most are) don't do much at all to help imbalances - which was the main point I was attempting (and failing) at making.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  6. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely with your first point. I should be clear that everything I've said is predicated on an assumption that the athlete is performing the movements correctly, have received some quality coaching. I've had the opportunity to train with a few different coaches who had strong olympic lifting backgrounds, so while my own form is still not perfect, I am at least working in the right direction under safe conditions.

    As to your second point, while I follow the logic I'm not totally sure I buy it. You are obviously an experienced and accomplished powerlifter, so at the very least I take your thoughts more seriously than some other people in this thread. That being said, there are such things as unilaterally, compound, functional movements - yes I know that's a mouthful. Single arm snatches/cleans/swings with a dumbbell or kettlebell are the most obvious example. Again, these are more complex movements that require some quality instruction, but in an ideal world... Even though these are all hip-driven movements, they require enough arm/shoulder strength to work out any imbalances, no?

    Edit - As a disclaimer: As I've said before, I'm both a Crossfit athlete and a coach. While I believe wholeheartedly in the Crossfit message, I am the FIRST to tell you that the majority of Crossfit gyms/coaches out there are very very poorly run, with far too little emphasis on coaching, technique, and safety. I've just been lucky as hell to work with some of the great coaches out there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  7. knucks

    knucks Well-Known Member

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    OH SHIT JOSH IS A CF COACH
     
  8. jarude

    jarude Well-Known Member

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    you seem to believe that "functional strength" is an either/or concept. its possible to train the big movements and the corresponding assistance work for strength and fill out your routine with higher volume isolation or secondary compound movements. that's what i have been doing for quite some time now, and im quite pleased with my results in both regards. in the post you quoted, i did not say "only do tons of volume on pure isolation movements all-day everyday," I said "curl and do tricep extensions if you want to." earlier on this page you saw me extol the virtues of squatting and deadlifting even when training for aesthetics. not doing curls because they aren't functional is completely asinine, short-sighted, and judgmental. if you dont want to curl, great, but that doesn't mean the guy who is curling needs to be shamed and has to grow up.

    my issue with the "functional strength" thing is summed up appropriately by what GN posted. its this ridiculous moral high ground that people assume when it comes to training, as evidenced by your condemnation of my "bro attitude" and the assertion that people doing isolation volume work need to "grow up." i remember being crucified by someone who has a kneejerk reaction to my anti-functional strength opinions because i deadlifted with straps, and somehow that was going to negate all benefits of strength training and leave me weak and useless in the real world- despite the fact that if i actually had to lift a couch or some other arbitrary heavy thing, i would be using an open grip. outside of the fact that only training for pure strength for your entire life isnt going to give you as much benefit as working in different rep ranges with different movements, assuming that there is only one path to "functional strength" is simply wrong. it is quite possible to lift for aesthetics and still have appreciable strength carryover to the real world, again assuming that the proper movements are being done - something i asserted in my original post and something you misrepresented when you responded.

    now, im not about to be dragged down into another pedantic slapfight over functional strength of all things, so you can continue to make strawmen or carry on. try 3x20 bicep curls right now while topless staring in the mirror, i bet it makes you feel good in that naughty naughty way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  9. LM16

    LM16 Well-Known Member

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    Single arm snatches/cleans/swings while compound - and unilateral generally load the body asymmetrically throughout multiple planes (generally not the best way to be fixing imbalances). When approaching imbalance issues, try to minimize the multi-planar facets and isolate the actual issue. As an example - if I have a herniated disc (I do) - I'm not going to try and FIX the issue using squats/deadlifts etc due to the movement through multiple planes when the issue is caused by an imbalance between my left and right hip pulling my SI and L5 offset in the X (dominant) and z (minimal movement here) axis'. Since when squatting/deadlift/olympic movements there is multiple planes of movement, x,y, and in cases unfortunately z. Since my issue is caused primarily by my joints being pulled across the X axis, I want to first address that issue and pull them back in the opposite direction hoping this in turn will help fix the rotational issues by being back in their normal place. With power movements, the focus is power, not rehabilitation and your body will take the path of least resistance in terms of activating muscle groups. It's going to choose what is the least painful and most effective way to complete a movement - regardless of whether or not you're actually trying to fix something. This is why of course the imbalances occur and why you see people end up having a variety of issues caused by improper loading (improper from a biomechanically efficient way).

    I'm obviously a proponent of compound lifts, and often they should be the primary focus of a program (though not always - as I mentioned rehab cases it's usually best to address using isolation work) but there is a time and place for everything. In powerlifting, it's not necessarily who is the most biomechnically gifted (though it helps) or who has the best muscle fiber composition (though it helps) it comes down to "who can last". Strength and power take time, injuries take away from training, and at least in my sport/my level of competition, it may not be who the strongest is on a given day that wins it may be who is the least beat up.

    The issue that I have with broadbased statements (and I'm just as guilty as it though I do try to avoid it) and generalizations is that people become so dogmatic in their thought process that they fail to realize there are many different ways to approach things, and each way of doing it is simply another tool. I'm not a believer of any specific program, I'm a believer of results. If someone told me that kipping pullups were the best way to activate my lats and thus increase my stability and drive on my bench you better believe I'd be doing lots of kipping pullups.

    Also, as a dislcaimer - I'm not knocking on crossfit - I love anything that gets people up off their couch and working hard. I do take issue with the cult like mentality that often permeates many of their gyms/members and the general piss poor programming (or lack of) that often gets people injured - though I do realize not all crossfit people are like this or program like this (the top competitors at the games most definitely do not).
     
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  10. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what the fuck everyone's point on the issue is since I don't care enough to read through everyone's novels of posts.

    But..

    Curls/tricep extensions. I do them. Very important to keep my elbow healthy and happy. And I the bigger those muscle are, the more it's going to help on your big three. E.g, size alone on your biceps makes it easier to keep a tighter base on your back for the bar on squats.

    Having said that, I might do 2 sets of 15-20 on curls and triceps extensions once a week. That's about it. No more than that. Heavy compound movements like squats and lesser compound movements like pulldowns, etc, work the biceps enough (benching, presses, etc for triceps) for me. I'm not going to sacrifice recovery and tomorrow's workout by doing more curls. This might work for some, and not for others. They're multiple ways to go about things.

    And no, I don't have 13" arms.


    Cliff notes: Curls/tricep extensions? Not super important to powerlifting. But definitely helps a smidgen for me. Might work for you, might not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  11. knucks

    knucks Well-Known Member

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    Interesting: I stopped doing anything tricep and my elbows feel great.

    Fuck aesthetics, I'm an oly lifter posting on a style forum BROs
     
  12. TeeKay

    TeeKay Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you wouldn't do curls/extensions, or why you'd purposefully neglect any body part. Shit, I did reverse curls today with the sole purpose of developing my brachioradialis. I do weighted toe-raises to work my anterior calves. I don't want to have any weakpoints in my body.

    Also, never saw jarude's aesthetics. Post please :embar:
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  13. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Well-Known Member

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    Because for some people, it makes no difference and takes away from their training. For others, it does help. Quite evident in the Bulgarian vs Chinese/Russian training methods when it comes to oly lifting.
     
  14. knucks

    knucks Well-Known Member

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    Probably because why

    Don't get me wrong, if I have imbalances and need to do that to correct things, OK, but otherwise I won't be wasting my time.

    I don't have big calves and I don't care. Calves don't help my squat.
     
  15. GraphicNovelty

    GraphicNovelty Well-Known Member

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    What are you even training for?

    I train KB's for power/GPP.
    I train with weights to maintain aesthetics
    I train yoga for flexibility.

    What are we even arguing about? I'd parse the walls of text but i'm not sure I even care enough.

    You don't need to squat 3 plates to be aesthetic, but being reasonably strong helps you lift more and the more you lift the more aesthetic you get.

    If your only goal is aesthetics, My go-to recommendation is to run SS with Curls and Dips ti'l you're repping "novice" weight on the exrx standards (probably take 6-8 weeks), and then run a split while increasing their lifts further.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
  16. knucks

    knucks Well-Known Member

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    What if I want to put a lot of weight overhead but be able to wear RO?
     
  17. jarude

    jarude Well-Known Member

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    heh, after all that functional aesthetic strength curling deadlift squat compound isolation movements nonsense, i had a good chat with the coach and am gonna get rolling on a strength routine. aiming to do a meet next year at this time; do want 300/400/500 at some point next year.
     
  18. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Well-Known Member

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    RO is perfect for that :nodding:
     
  19. knucks

    knucks Well-Known Member

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    You wan't to squat 3, bench 4, and deadlift 5? :)
     
  20. LM16

    LM16 Well-Known Member

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    Bench more than you squat?
     

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