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Random health and exercise thoughts

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by Eason, Dec 20, 2009.

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  1. mrchariybrown

    mrchariybrown Well-Known Member

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    I think what TKJTG meant wasn't the actual lift being done quickly.

    But the combinations of all the movements for reps and in succession done as quickly as possible because time constraints seem to be a big thing in crossfit.

    Which for most lifters, whom don't have the technical aspects of the movements down yet, spells disaster.

    Proper technique for oly lifts and portions of the lifts takes years for someone to get right (and even then, there's room for improvement), and I constantly see 6-month old crossfitters doing these movements for WOD's as fast as possible to get a time they're happy with.

    Hell, I will even apply this to the basic squat and deadlift. I see guys that have been lifting for years with the shittiest technique in both. I would never suggest that they do some fast-paced WOD with those lifts involved.. much less, someone that is only a year or so into crossfit getting "technique" "pointers" from crossfit "trainers" (who have shitty technique to begin with).

    I want to add in that, once again, I don't think all crossfit trainers are crap. I just know that my experience with them leads me to believe that a small minority of them actually are qualified to teach what they're doing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
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  2. VLSI

    VLSI Well-Known Member

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    yes that injury was easily avoided if he had been trying to lift it faster
     
  3. TRINI

    TRINI Well-Known Member

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    I dunno about those specifically but frozen veg is supposed to actually be better than fresh since they're flash-frozen right after they're picked and so retain more nutrients.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  4. MarkI

    MarkI Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're right about that.

    This really sucks though. Just got home a little while ago, popped some ibuprofen and laying on a heating pad. Guess this is my life for the next couple of days.
     
  5. TeeKay

    TeeKay Well-Known Member

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    Charly do you have another comp lined up?
     
  6. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    Listen, I agree. Lifting heavy weights safely requires good technique. Full stop. This is true whether you are lifting as part of a strength routine (low reps, rest between sets, etc) or as part of a conditioning routine (high reps, little to no rest, etc). While lifting heavy weights as part of a conditioning routine may make it more difficult to consistently perform with good technique, people shouldn't lull themselves into thinking that they don't have to worry because they are doing strength work. Crossfit may unhealthily push people toward moving faster than they can safely move, but the strength community is just as guilty of unhealthily pushing people to lift heavier weights than they can safely lift.

    I've seen videos posted by various beginning lifters on this thread that display some really horrible technique, and yet they are more concerned with making linear progress week-to-week than they are with becoming better squatters. If you can't squat without lumbar flexion, it doesn't matter how easy it feels or how fast the bar goes up, you are putting yourself at unreasonable risk of injury. A good coach won't put a bar on a new athlete's back until that athlete can perform a technically sound air squat with some consistency - and this is true of a good Crossfit coach or of a good strength coach.

    At the end of the day, good technique is good technique and bad technique is bad technique, no matter how you are structuring your workout. Too many new athletes and bad coaches, regardless of programming, push themselves to achieve numerical goals at the expense of building a strong technical foundation. This isn't just a Crossfit problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  7. TeeKay

    TeeKay Well-Known Member

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    The only people who I've seen in strength programs with those issues(myself included) you speak of are the ones who go WITHOUT a coach. Those with coaches typically don't have those problems.

    On the other hand, Crossfitters ALL have coaches and have these dangerous habits despite their "coaching". With Crossfit the focus is to do the exercises as quickly as possible so you can do as many reps as possible in as little time as possible. That is a recipe for disaster.
     
  8. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    Which goes back to the importance of good coaching. My point is just that quality coaching is more important than programming methodology. I'm the first to admit that Crossfit has a quality control program with coaching. I've been lucky to work with very good coaches, but that's absolutely the exception to the rule.

    If an athlete has accurate, consistent technique, there's nothing inherently more dangerous about increasing intensity by increasing reps/speed than there is about increasing intensity by increasing weight. If an athlete has poor or inconsistent technique, then any increase in intensity is a recipe for disaster.
     
  9. fuji

    fuji Well-Known Member

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    I think I accidentally might have crossfitted this weekend. Lifted on the military base and no one was at the gym not even any staff and the weather was beautiful so I took a barbell and some plates outside and did cleans whilst topless for reps with bitch weight because I have absolutely no idea how to clean. I did this, which was probably useless in terms of of achieving my goals instead of my planned push workout so I guess that is basically cross fit. This was after some dumbbell bench so I even got the random order of movements down.

    [​IMG]


    You merlin sickening starwars thing in the backround?


    Sad news, my econ posts might be ending soon. Even though my econ score may be high enough for my uni to pay me for being one of the best in the year at it I might not be able to switch to an actual econ degree from maths and stats. Instead I'll probably be doing statistics and finance so I can be a quant for goldman after my masters of even more stats and finance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
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  10. Cool The Kid

    Cool The Kid Well-Known Member

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    This is like saying, "people die in car crashes sober so I dont see the prob w/keeping a bottle of Jack in the car"
     
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  11. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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    not really.
    I also don't see the point in repping olympic lifts, but to be doing that you're going to be lifting pretty light weight. if you're lifting light weight with good technique then you're probably even less likely to injure yourself that heavy weight with good technique. If you do either with bad technique then you're asking for it. Doesn't matter how many reps.

    The only problem I have with crossfit is the goals. You're not going to get bigger or stronger on crossfit beyond beginner gains, so they should be honest about that.

    It's conditioning, endurance and cardio. It's not "bigger, faster, stronger" or whatever their motto is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  12. Van Veen

    Van Veen Well-Known Member

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  13. Lagrangian

    Lagrangian Well-Known Member

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    agreed 100%
     
  14. Lagrangian

    Lagrangian Well-Known Member

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    dont worry brah if I was now me finishing HS I would've gone to study mathematics or physics no doubt about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2013
  15. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's at all like that. The argument that Crossfit-style conditioning workouts are inherently dangerous has serious logical flaws. TKJTG says, "With Crossfit the focus is to do the exercises as quickly as possible so you can do as many reps as possible in as little time as possible. That is a recipe for disaster."

    Why is doing more reps in less time a "recipe for disaster"? I'm taking TKJTG to mean that these sort of workouts produce a higher risk of injury than traditional strength training programming of compound lifts (low volume/high weight). Let's break down that argument:

    In general, exercise is only dangerous when performed incorrectly. Whether you are on your first rep or your hundredth rep, if you perform it correctly - i.e., with proper technique - there is a very low risk of injury. Whether you are on your first rep or your hundredth rep, if you perform it incorrectly - i.e. without proper technique - there is a greater risk of injury. In order to make the argument that high volume/high speed execution of compound lifts is more dangerous than low volume/low speed execution of these same lifts, one must be positing that the increase in either volume, speed, or both lead to a breakdown in technique.

    I would argue that while there is a correlation between increasing volume/speed and technical breakdowns, it doesn't work the way most of you guys are imagining it. Most importantly, it's not a constant. That is, it is entirely possible to perform 30 clean & jerks in 90 seconds and execute each rep to near perfection - it's just difficult, and not for beginners.

    So how does this correlation between moving faster and losing technique work? Let's take a step back. There are 3 basic numerical values by which to measure a workout: weight, volume, and speed. How much weight are you lifting? How many reps are you doing? How quickly are you getting through all these reps? The "intensity" of a workout can be increased by increasing either weight or volume, or by decreasing the time it takes to complete the workout. Any time you increase the intensity of a workout, you risk technical breakdown. This is particularly true when an athlete approaches a max effort of any kind. It's true when an athlete is trying to move as fast as he can, but is equally true when an athlete is trying to move the heaviest weight he can (again, I've seen many of your guys squat and deadlift videos on this thread...) A max effort in the volume or speed metrics is no more likely to cause technical breakdowns than a max effort in the weight metric.

    So how does a good coach prevent injuries in new athletes? Create and follow the right cycle of priorities: accuracy, then consistency, then intensity. First, an athlete must be able to perform a movement correctly. Then the athlete must show the ability to perform the movement accurately with consistency. Only then can you increase the intensity (be it by increasing the weight, adding volume, or going faster). With every increase in intensity, there will likely be a decrease in accuracy and consistency. That's why it's a cycle. At the new intensity, the athlete must again show the ability to perform movements accurately and consistently before intensity is further increased.

    Going back to the original issue... if there's a problem in Crossfit, it's a problem of inadequate quality control among coaches, rather than an inherent problem with the programming. There is reason that high volume/high speed compound lifts are inherently more dangerous than high weight compound lifts. The danger comes from athletes and coaches who prioritize intensity over accuracy and consistency, and again, that's not a Crossfit-specific problem.
     
  16. VLSI

    VLSI Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it sounds like everyone agrees. The problem is that newbies to crossfit are joining under the false auspices of proper instruction and coaching. Therefore, their injuries become largely attributed to an issue with the crossfit program (deserved or not). As TK pointed out, many weighlifters/strength trainees do so on their own without coaching. When they get injured, it's simply attributed to being an idiot or not seeking proper guidance rather than a programming issue. Crossfit is simply a different program with different goals, and we can respect that. Unfortunately in many gyms, it seems that Crossfit, which has become "hip/trendy" like it or not, has become an avenue for exploiting ignorance of novice lifters for profit at the expense of quality control and safety. Thus Crossfit gets the reputation it has.
     
  17. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I'd actually give people the benefit of the doubt and say the problem is not that anyone is trying to exploit novice athletes, but that novice athletes themselves are so easily able to become coaches. I dropped in at a gym outside Seattle where the owner/coach was a former computer programmer who started doing Crossfit, went to a certification, and a few months later had his own gym. He wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone, he just didn't have anywhere near to experience to be properly coaching anyone, particularly new athletes.
     
    4 people like this.
  18. hendrix

    hendrix Well-Known Member

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  19. joshuasaussey

    joshuasaussey Well-Known Member

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    If you are not worried about fat intake you can have about 3 shakes/drinks over the day with around 4 tablespoons of olive oil in each, that's around 1,500 cal right there with just oil alone.

    I've known a dude who can do the same amount of reps of 225lb on squat and bench, he's like 6"3 with long ass legs.
     
  20. Eason

    Eason Well-Known Member

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    *slowly raises hand*

    though to my credit after my vacation I reset to 185 5x5 and and now am up to 245 5x5 on squarts. I forgot how fucking difficult it is doing a full body workout including 5x5 squats 3x/week
     

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