1. Welcome to the new Styleforum!

    We hope you’re as excited as we are to hang out in the new place. There are more new features that we’ll announce in the near future, but for now we hope you’ll enjoy the new site.

    We are currently fine-tuning the forum for your browsing pleasure, so bear with any lingering dust as we work to make Styleforum even more awesome than it was.

    Oh, and don’t forget to head over to the Styleforum Journal, because we’re giving away two pairs of Carmina shoes to celebrate our move!

    Please address any questions about using the new forum to support@styleforum.net

    Cheers,

    The Styleforum Team

    Dismiss Notice

Per Se vs. Eleven Madison Park

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by hopkins_student, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. SField

    SField Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,278
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    When they visit, I take my mom and dad to places like Craft, Blue Hill, and Minetta Tavern. Relatively simple food that still hits the spot.

    Those are great suggestions.

    Craft, Grammercy Tavern etc are great examples of food that most people would find very appealing and accessible.
     
  2. nmprisons

    nmprisons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Agreed. Grammercy Tavern is another great suggestion for accessible food, particularly for visitors of NYC because it is such an institution.
     
  3. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    You know, people can rail on the prices set by Keller's somm, but Per Se is one of the most plush, well located dining rooms on the planet. That real estate is shockingly expensive (although I don't know his terms with the TW people). And the city is full of people willing to pay those retarded mark ups. Granted, the wine list at TFL is also fairly laughable, but the guy's overhead is just insane. I mean really, there are a handful of restaurants in the world that have as many costs as the operation Keller runs in NYC. While there are places I'd rather dine for $300 in the US, I would never get mad at him for it being expensive. Same for Masa. Look where it is? What do you fucking expect? And with the fish they're getting? People complain but they don't take into account the cost of running these places. They're really a labor of love/insanity. Keller could make a hell of a lot more money putting out a much shittier product.

    I don't know what it costs to run those places but that wine list bascially says to me "Don't dine here unless A) You know nothing about what wine should cost and B) you are so rich that you don't care." I expect to pay more, perhaps even a lot more, than retail at very nice places but that list is still nuts.

    I went to Robuchon, not the Atelier but the big brother, in Vegas earlier this year and it costs more than Per Se and the list was much better and even had some very good deals (in addition to the to-be-expected "OMG it's DRC/Lafite let's get it honey!!" bottles). So it can be done.
     
  4. SField

    SField Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,278
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    I mean listen I agree with you to an extent, but also knowing the margins of some of these places, it kind of requires wine to go for that many times retail for them to remain solvent. It takes little to no labor/knowledge to have those there and people pay a premium. They're basically printing money.

    That said, as I've said before, I'm really not into wine with food. I like wine with food, but I really have a big problem paying for it. I have more respect for places like Graham Elliot with wine programs aimed at finding gems that are excellent in quality, that actually took labor on the part of the somm rather than just having a list full of war horses that even a total schmuck with no knowledge could come up with.

    I so rarely order bottles with dinner anymore that it doesn't bother me. There are so few times that I really want one bottle with all my food, and I do prefer drinking most great wines on their own. I think they deserve that attention, and I almost always feel (especially with reds,) that food ruins my palate for the wine. I'm in a tiny minority here, but I've most enjoyed great wine without food, on a 3/4 full stomach.
     
  5. JayJay

    JayJay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    24,364
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007

    I so rarely order bottles with dinner anymore that it doesn't bother me. There are so few times that I really want one bottle with all my food, and I do prefer drinking most great wines on their own. I think they deserve that attention, and I almost always feel (especially with reds,) that food ruins my palate for the wine. I'm in a tiny minority here, but I've most enjoyed great wine without food, on a 3/4 full stomach.

    Same here. If I have any wine with my meal, then it's a glass for each course or one for the entire meal. I like wine, but more often than not, I don't order wine.
     
  6. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,383
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Location:
    NYC
    You know, people can rail on the prices set by Keller's somm, but Per Se is one of the most plush, well located dining rooms on the planet.

    I actually like EMP's location better. No sweeping Central Park views, but it's still a very grand room that is well appointed and a stroll through Maison Square Park after a big meal is very nice. PS, while I agree very plush and a super prime location with real estate that is $$$$ and worth it, is still on the fourth floor of a shopping mall.
     
  7. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,383
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Location:
    NYC
    Agreed. Grammercy Tavern is another great suggestion for accessible food, particularly for visitors of NYC because it is such an institution.
    +1, GT is awesome and consistently great.
    Your numbers are off. EMP's four-course meal is 125 and their tasting in 195. Neither of those numbers include tax and tip. The latter ends up being pretty darn close to Per Se's 295 as it includes tax and tip.
    true, I forgot about the EMP menu change. I don't like the tic-tac-toe setup, but so it goes. On the flip side, there's enough "supplemental" options on the Per Se menu that it's easy to bump the overall price from $295 to $450 without much effort.
     
  8. bullethead

    bullethead Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    572
    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2007
    Location:
    nyc
    Per Se was a memorable meal though I wouldn't return on my dime.

    Dinner for three including wine ($190) was $1457.00
    Two orders of the truffle risotto @150 per helped bump this up. I figured if i was there I might as well try it.
    Some of the courses were wonderful, others just okay. Too much money for dinner, IMO.
     
  9. Pat

    Pat Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    226
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Location:
    st. louis
    does the $295 at per se include tax as well as tip?
     
  10. nmprisons

    nmprisons Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    does the $295 at per se include tax as well as tip?

    Yes. If you were to order nothing else and give them $295 at the end of your meal, you would leave in their good graces.
     
  11. kwilkinson

    kwilkinson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    33,650
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Location:
    Chicago
    Yes. If you were to order nothing else and give them $295 at the end of your meal, you would leave in their good graces.

    Even though they have a service charge, if you left exactly $295, you wouldn't exactly be in the good graces of the FOH staff.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    Even though they have a service charge, if you left exactly $295, you wouldn't exactly be in the good graces of the FOH staff.

    Then what is the point of including service? And what is the expected tip beyond that?

    Seriously, at least when service is not included everyone knows what is expected. When it is, no one does. So either include it and make it clear that's it, as in Europe, or don't included it and let everyone tip as per custom.
     
  13. Concordia

    Concordia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,773
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    I don't know what it costs to run those places but that wine list bascially says to me "Don't dine here unless A) You know nothing about what wine should cost and B) you are so rich that you don't care." I expect to pay more, perhaps even a lot more, than retail at very nice places but that list is still nuts.

    I went to Robuchon, not the Atelier but the big brother, in Vegas earlier this year and it costs more than Per Se and the list was much better and even had some very good deals (in addition to the to-be-expected "OMG it's DRC/Lafite let's get it honey!!" bottles). So it can be done.


    I just skimmed the list, and if you're resigned to a $60-90 markup, some of the very cheapest wines on the list are actually quite well chosen. The problem is that they also go for 4x markups further up the chain.

    Another interesting tidbit-- while they have a lot of good Bordeaux, it's not a comprehensive list. Very few 2000s, for one thing. Since I had the stupidity to buy a bunch of those before release, the $90 corkage fee could lead to some relatively good values there.
     
  14. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    I just skimmed the list, and if you're resigned to a $60-90 markup, some of the very cheapest wines on the list are actually quite well chosen. The problem is that they also go for 4x markups further up the chain.

    Another interesting tidbit-- while they have a lot of good Bordeaux, it's not a comprehensive list. Very few 2000s, for one thing. Since I had the stupidity to buy a bunch of those before release, the $90 corkage fee could lead to some relatively good values there.


    I looked through the list very carefully earlier this year and found nothing like that. I would have been delighted to see a mere $60-90 markup. Maybe it's changed a lot in the intervening months.
     
  15. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    33,327
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Location:
    New York City
    I have a question, folks. A friend tells me that if you go to a pricey restaurant and order an expensive bottle of wine before tipping you should subtract the cost of the wine before tipping your 20%. Is this common, or he is just cheap? I mean I see his point are you supposed to tip 20% on a bottle of Petrus?
     
  16. edinatlanta

    edinatlanta Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    25,411
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Wit' Yo' Baby Momma
    Seriously, at least when service is not included everyone knows what is expected. When it is, no one does. So either include it and make it clear that's it, as in Europe, or don't included it and let everyone tip as per custom.

    I have a question, folks. A friend tells me that if you go to a pricey restaurant and order an expensive bottle of wine before tipping you should subtract the cost of the wine before tipping your 20%. Is this common, or he is just cheap? I mean I see his point are you supposed to tip 20% on a bottle of Petrus?

    And I hate how now,any type of "service" is expected to include a tip.
     
  17. Concordia

    Concordia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,773
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    I looked through the list very carefully earlier this year and found nothing like that. I would have been delighted to see a mere $60-90 markup. Maybe it's changed a lot in the intervening months.

    Probably not a lot. But in white halves, you have a good generic Riesling, a Matrot Meursault, and some Vouvray Sec from Huet. Red halves you get some Cote Rotie and St Joseph, and (pushing it), a Bandol, and several Italians for $80 or less.

    In full bottles, there are quite a few at $100 or less that I'd suspect are worth opening, even with good food. Obviously, if you're in Burgundy or Bordeaux and leaving the generic/regional turf, it gets ugly. But the provincial stuff, as well as the Spanish and Italians, might be a useful test of the sommelier's ability to come to terms with the chef.
     
  18. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    Probably not a lot. But in white halves, you have a good generic Riesling, a Matrot Meursault, and some Vouvray Sec from Huet. Red halves you get some Cote Rotie and St Joseph, and (pushing it), a Bandol, and several Italians for $80 or less.

    In full bottles, there are quite a few at $100 or less that I'd suspect are worth opening, even with good food. Obviously, if you're in Burgundy or Bordeaux and leaving the generic/regional turf, it gets ugly. But the provincial stuff, as well as the Spanish and Italians, might be a useful test of the sommelier's ability to come to terms with the chef.


    I was semi-planning a trip earlier this year with gomestar and we both looked through the list and came away totally discouraged. This was around Jan or Feb.

    Now I am afraid to go because I don't know what is expected on the tipping side. [​IMG]
     
  19. gomestar

    gomestar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,383
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Location:
    NYC
    I still want to go and still have 3 $100 bills I set aside from bonus time.

    But now there are 2 more 'supplemental' menu items [​IMG]
     
  20. Concordia

    Concordia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,773
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    I was semi-planning a trip earlier this year with gomestar and we both looked through the list and came away totally discouraged. This was around Jan or Feb.

    Now I am afraid to go because I don't know what is expected on the tipping side. [​IMG]


    You're afraid that the waiters are all star writers at Devil's Island?
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by