1. Welcome to the new Styleforum!

    We hope you’re as excited as we are to hang out in the new place. There are more new features that we’ll announce in the near future, but for now we hope you’ll enjoy the new site.

    We are currently fine-tuning the forum for your browsing pleasure, so bear with any lingering dust as we work to make Styleforum even more awesome than it was.

    Oh, and don’t forget to head over to the Styleforum Journal, because we’re giving away two pairs of Carmina shoes to celebrate our move!

    Please address any questions about using the new forum to support@styleforum.net

    Cheers,

    The Styleforum Team

    Dismiss Notice

Ongoing Bespoke Projects

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Sander, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. bry2000

    bry2000 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,008
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Not necessarily. Some of the outsourced workers are highly skilled in their specific craft.
     
    2 people like this.
  2. WillingToLearn

    WillingToLearn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    797
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Outsourced is often perceived as a negative. "Sent to a specialist" is just a different way to say the same thing.
     
  3. bry2000

    bry2000 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,008
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    The reality is remakes are rarely done. There is usually enough grey area where the suit is fine even if the client was expecting a little better. Even in the case where details were missed (wrong color lining, etc), most clients just let it go. I know I have. In all my years of ordering bespoke clothes, I have had only one instance where the bespoke provider took back the garment because it did not fit and we agreed it could not be salvaged.
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    

    Sure. Rarely done because they are rarely necessary. It's not the Apollo project. It's men's suiting. Most of the time it's right or within a range where it can easily be made right. But if a suit can't be modified because there isn't enough fabric then that strikes me as a clear case where a remake is necessary. I've had jackets completely broken down and reassembled. And I've rejected bespoke shoes completely and asked for my money back instead of a remake. I currently have huntsman working on a jacket that I ordered in December 2013. I've never had to have a jacket completely redone but I have no doubt that if a jacket needed to be remade then it would.
     
  5. lordsuperb

    lordsuperb Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,385
    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    

    @paborden If you're still with us and reading the exchanges I would suggest sticking with one tailor. Go with one who's house style you like the most and can see yourself wearing in a business setting and or casual nature. I got killed in the Paone thread for saying this but all you need is one tailor for now. Work on building a rapport and refining your pattern. You may find this endeavor an expensive ass pain to get right.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
    2 people like this.
  6. gdl203

    gdl203 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    36,642
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Location:
    New York
    can we agree that not every fit "problem" is always the tailor's fault? I've attended A LOT of fittings in the last couple years and it is clear to me that some customers are unable to articulate their preferences clearly, even when they have two opportunities to do so (order and basted fitting). Not to mention that customers (especially those with little experience with bespoke) are sometimes plain wrong about their requests or assessment (I know I have been one of those guys) - it takes time and some wear to understand what is a good fit, and then again to articulate some of those preferences clearly.

    My best advice is to (a) trust the tailor without micro-managing (the absolute worst results are always when a customer takes a tape to the jacket and starts a long list of requests) BUT (b) to open your eyes and mouth at the basted fitting stage. Is the jacket the length you like? It will be much harder to fix that later. Do you like the feeling around the chest and waist when it's pinned? If you have a preference for more room or something leaner, speak up. There's a spectrum of fits that are perfectly correct in absolute but may be very different from one person's preference to the other.

    My other point is that tailors are not immune to screwing up. Everyone makes mistakes. Often, everything is great after two fittings. But sometimes, a commission needs more work and a few rounds of further alterations. An experienced tailor will go through those motions and correct the issues.

    But when it's the customer who is being impossible about nits and things that are just not realistic - we're talking about cloth that moves and stretches and people whose waist expands after a big lunch yet somehow expects millimetric perfection with fittings that are several months apart...

    In my experience in the last two years, 75% of bespoke commissions turn out very well after basted fittings, 20%+ require further work after forward fitting (more than just sleeve length or hems) and 3-4% will never be right because the customer has an unreasonable state of mind about the whole thing. So a very small minority overall. Most issues can be worked and resolved.

    Final point is that one MUST take into account cultural differences in expressing themselves when dealing with people from other countries. Some Italian tailors will shrug and be "confrontational" about discussed fit issues (saving face) - but then will absolutely do the work to get you all the fixes you want, so that they can be proud of their work and the fact that you're satisfied with it.

    [​IMG]

    a lot of American customers are very deadpan about their satisfaction with the tailor's work. It isn't anyone's fault - it's part of our cultural upbringing - but understanding these differences in expressing ideas and impressions, can only help in developing a better rapport between people. Be more expressive, tell your tailor how happy you are if he did a nice job for you.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
    14 people like this.
  7. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,556
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    

    Agree. I'm curious though what you think should be determined at the fittings? Aside from the length of the jacket and the sleeves, I find it hard to tell what's going on. With all the basting and how the shoulders and chest are usually cut (larger than normal), I'm not sure what should be said.

    I do think it's useful for customers to separate fit from style. A jacket might not be to your stylistic taste, but it could still fit perfectly and have excellent workmanship. Sometimes that sort of thing gets conflated into fit on this forum, which confuses things. I wouldn't accept a jacket that doesn't fit, but I accept that stylistic details might turn out differently than originally imagined.
     
  8. C&A

    C&A Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    866
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    

    Funny you mention Raffaele Iorio. He doesn't get mentioned a lot on this board, blogs or instagram. Or have you seen some of his stuff irl?



    Why no mention of the post-Rubinacci Gennaro Paone stuff? Imo his work is certainly up there with his contemporaries Gennaro Solito, Antonio Panico and Raffaele Iorio that you do mention.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
    2 people like this.
  9. WillingToLearn

    WillingToLearn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    797
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lordsuperb View Post


    None whatsoever, however, you may have high expectations of the tailors recommended and be let down. You will have to find out what works for you.




    Understood. I have experience with multiple bespoke tailors, based here in the U.S. and overseas. Hearing the perspective of others, especially in comparing many of a similar style is still of value and interest to me.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  10. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,556
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    

    Great chart by the way. I suggest reworking this for new members so they know how to navigate this forum.

    [​IMG]
     
    20 people like this.
  11. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,805
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Ambrosi used to be 'outsourced' the pants for Solito and Rubinacci I believe. Don't see anyone calling him a cheaper option. Or a lesser one.
     
  12. bry2000

    bry2000 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,008
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    The relationship between Solito and Ambrosi is over and Ambrosi left some customers ( by some, I mean me) hanging out to dry.
     
  13. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    

    Definitely lesser. I would rate him as terrible as would many others. Cheaper, absolutely. When he was doing outsourcing I believe the charge was about three or four hundred euro.
     
  14. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,805
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    

    lesser due to bad quality or because of lateness?
     
  15. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    
    The quality. Have you actually used ambrosi or are you just guessing?
     
  16. lordsuperb

    lordsuperb Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,385
    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    @agjiffy Any chance we can see more of your cifonelli collection?
     
    2 people like this.
  17. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,805
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    

    I don't own any, but I've seen and handled a few.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  18. S K M

    S K M Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    853
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2012
    


    I've never heard of this Iorio either, but very curious to learn more. Managed to dig out a few photos here on SF and it looks really nice. Does anyone have first hand experience and/or know about style, prices etc...?
     
  19. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,146
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    

    I think the common experience is that the outcome ranges from great to horrendous. I think many find that the problems are too common and too hard to get fixed to make it worthwhile. I like the the armoury guys are upfront about this and are always willing to give you your money back when Ambrosi flakes out, so it can be worth a try. In my case, I never received the great; just the horrendous. The pants were unwearable. And he didn't seem to have much interest in making them right. I tried, but that was a time-consuming experience that I imagine would have been impossible without the armoury standing behind the pants. Ambrosi is the only tailor I've ever used that doesn't require a look at the finished product on the client. I find that troubling, particularly at his rarified price point.

    I thought Simon Crompton's review was pretty much spot on.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  20. greger

    greger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,470
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Location:
    WA
    Simon Crompton's reports are not reliable. Just look at one of his shirts, a total mess, not to mention a number of other things he has written about clothes. Getting something right now and then means his words are meaningless.
     
    1 person likes this.

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by