On suicide

[Thomas]

Actually, this idea's been percolating a bit and is still incomplete, but this board has a disproportionate number of very vocal alphas who have proven a degree of legitimacy over the years. This, in itself, is not a bad thing. But when you also consider there are a number of sub-alphas and aspirational alphas and straight-out liars about their alpha-hood, that tends to give a skewed view of the community. A lot of us are 'normal' behind the paychecks and under the clothing. We all have our failed hopes and dreams, lost loves, physical ailments, etc - but very few of us give much voice to that with good reason. No one wants to come to SF to read agony story after agony story. That said, I think we all have to remember that what you read on SF is mostly the triumphs and rejoicing, with the understanding that sorrow and disappointment always lurks under the surface, unspoken. Remember that the next time you try to measure your life against what you're reading here. None of us measure up against that yardstick.

 

[rach2jlc]



What's with the censorship? My post was deleted? All I said was "Don't kill yourself."

No you didn't. We all know you're both a troll and a sock, which is fine and we're all used to them. Some are more clever than others, and you had a great start with the DIY guides. lately, though, like all trolls, you're going off the deep end.

This thread is not the place for what you said or how you said it. If it was intentional, then you are exactly the troll others have said. If it was serious, then it was crass and tone deaf, hardly worth being on a thread that is obviously very difficult for many people to speak about, and far more personal than the usual SF discussion. If you can't approach it with that in mind, and act accordingly, then go back to mending socks and turn off the computer for a while.

I'm assuming others may have as well, but I (for one) reported your post and was very glad to see it deleted. I won't respond to anything else about it, as it will derail the thread, but I didn't want you playing victim and/or attention whore wondering what happened (though you probably know very well).

 

[JLibourel]

Oh, I thought i would add another interesting suicide to the litany of those I posted above:

In the neighborhood where I grew up in Los Angeles, there lived an old veteran of the Spanish-American War and the Philippine Campaign. He really looked the part. He had a magnificent gray handlebar mustache and usually wore immaculate pressed khakis and a campaign hat. We usually addressed and referred to him simply by his rank, "Major." However, I guess today we would say Major had a severe case of PTSD. My mother said that as a little girl she could hear him screaming in the night (he lived three doors down from us). He was known to shoot stray cats that came on his property, this not too far from downtown LA! My mother warned me not to play in the vicinity of his house.

One morning early in 1954, the adolescent girl whose family lived next door to him saw him walk out on the front lawn. She greeted him with a cheerful, "Hello, Major." He mumbled something in response, pulled out his old Government Model .45 auto and blew his brains out right in front of the shocked girl. The girl was so traumatized by the event that her family had to move elsewhere. This happened while I was away traveling in Europe with my mother. There were rumors that he had done this after receiving a diagnosis of testicular cancer, but you'd think a man of his years might be more philosophic about something like that.

I feel a little bad about my previous catalog of suicides appearing just after Imhoff had posted his moving cri de coeur. It made me feel somewhat crass and shallow, but then, I suppose I am rather crass and shallow in general. I tend to think that a little sensitivity and introspection is probably healthy, but too much can be quite destructive.

If I had to advise anybody, especially a young fellow of 30, about whether life is worth going on with, I'd certainly tell him to hang in. You never know when your luck is going to change. You may suddenly find a great job (I did after years of unemployment and underemployment), win a high-dollar lottery (no luck there for me!), meet the girl of your dreams (I'll take the Fifth on that) or any number of other good things. If you're only 30, you've probably got 50 years ahead of you, so try to make the best of them!

 

[rach2jlc]



If I had to advise anybody, especially a young fellow of 30, about whether life is worth going on with, I'd certainly tell him to hang in. You never know when your luck is going to change. You may suddenly find a great job (I did after years of unemployment and underemployment), win a high-dollar lottery (no luck there for me!), meet the girl of your dreams (I'll take the Fifth on that) or any number of other good things. If you're only 30, you've probably got 50 years ahead of you, so try to make the best of them!

Very true and good advice, Jan. I was in similar circumstances back in my early 20's, not really seeing how things were going to shape up and feeling a heavy malaise. I'd done everything "right" (all the right grades, all the right school, a number of job offers and offers of grad school, etc.) and it all just felt, blegh. What made it worse was that nobody understood, and I got a lot of the, "how can you be depressed... look at all yo'uve got/done!"

The solution came, for me, in the strangest unexpected circumstances (as you said, a new job COMPLETELY unrelated to those other circumstances), which completely changed my outlook. A year before the change, I'd never have thought it possible. Again, everybody's circumstances are different, but I agree that time and circumstances can change quickly, often for the better.

I also think that sometimes a complete change of venue can be a good option. Obviously, nobody wants to jump into the unknown blindly, but a new place, new circle, new activities, etc. (that are positive!) can often be a good idea... at least for me.

It reminds me of this passage:

Some years ago—never mind how long precisely—having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off—then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.

 

[dieworkwear]

I've known a few people who've committed suicide. A friend's sister, another friend's mom, and an old college housemate. I'll spare the details of their deaths because I don't think they're necessary. I do think, however, that the "walk it off" and "control your life" advice here is somewhat silly. There are a hundred paths to suicide, and some of them are really, really long. The three people I know who committed suicide struggled with mental illnesses for years, some decades, and all three had gone through every treatment you can think of. I'm not saying there weren't solutions to their problems, but they weren't ones that could be solved with just morning jogs.

Regardless, SF Suicide Prevention should be posted here because it's a useful resource. If someone lurking here is thinking of suicide, or has thought of suicide, I think these guys are a good place to turn.

 

[lasbar]



I've known a few people who've committed suicide. A friend's sister, another friend's mom, and an old college housemate. I'll spare the details of their deaths because I don't think they're necessary. I do think, however, that the "walk it off" and "control your life" advice here is somewhat silly. There are a hundred paths to suicide, and some of them are really, really long. The three people I know who committed suicide struggled with mental illnesses for years, some decades, and all three had gone through every treatment you can think of. I'm not saying there weren't solutions to their problems, but they weren't ones that could be solved with just morning jogs.
Regardless, SF Suicide Prevention should be posted here because it's a useful resource. If someone lurking here is thinking of suicide, or has thought of suicide, I think these guys are a good place to turn.

Suicide is such a complex issue we must avoid stereotypes.

In the particular cases of mental illnesses such as bipolar disorder, no morning jogs or self motivation gimmicks will help you...

What will help you is a correct diagnostic and the adequate treatment even if lifechange lifestyles are always helping ..

I remember colleagues telling people they have to stand and get on with it...

Ifit was that easy in these particlar cases...

 

[YOLO EMSHI]

I wonder, if someone you knew with good reasoning (be subjective as you want here) asked you if they should kill themselves, would you say yes?

 

[lasbar]



I wonder, if someone you knew with good reasoning (be subjective as you want here) asked you if they should kill themselves, would you say yes?

Life is too precious and fragile to be lost by such manner and I'm also an optimist by nature..

Apart from terminally ill people or suffering extreme physical pain ,I would like to think there are always solutions...

In the particular cases of mental illnesses , treatments can improve quality of life...

Every case must be judged on is own merit..

Could you be more precise ?

 

[dieworkwear]



Life is too precious and fragile to be lost by such manner and I'm also an optimist by nature..
Apart from terminally ill people or suffering extreme physical pain ,I would like to think there are always solutions...
In the particular cases of mental illnesses , treatments can improve quality of life...
Every case must be judged on is own merit..
Could you be more precise ?

I'd hesitate to give anyone advice on whether they should end their own life, but I do believe in euthanasia. I also think the treatments we have for mental illnesses are considerably less advanced than those that we have for physical ailments, and that mental pain shouldn't be discounted as any less real than physical pain.

 

[lasbar]

Mental illness treatment have got better the last 20 years with the arrival of new molecules with less perverse side effects...

It is a difficult field because mental issues cannot only analized through a cold rational approach...

I do believe medical treatments are still in their infancy and very soon new molecules will allow people to have productive lives..

 

[MrG]

As the person who first introduced the idea of exercise as a treatment/coping mechanism, I suppose I'll continue to defend it.

I agree that exercise is not a panacea for the full spectrum of depression, but I also object to the fact that it's being dismissed by a lot of people in this thread. I take particular issue with the way exercise is being portrayed as tantamount to saying "walk it off." No one has said that, and implying that someone has taken that position serves to minimize a very useful therapeutic tool for dealing with depression.

Again, as I said earlier in this thread's history, I'm not trying to say running laps is going to magically cure depression. Every case is different, and, just as certain people don't respond to certain types of meds, regular exercise isn't going to be the right treatment for everyone. However, it is a very, very useful approach, particular in mild to moderate cases. I should also note that exercise provides similar improvements in anxiety disorders, which makes sense given their common comorbidity.

I posted a bit of research on the topic below. I thought it was particularly interesting that SSRIs provided quicker results, but exercise provided longer-lasting improvement. I wonder if that's tied to the fact that exercise represents a lifestyle change, rather than simply a treatment option.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Exercise-and-Depression-report-excerpt.htm

Spoiler: The Write-up from the Link

Can a few laps around the block actually solve your emotional problems? Probably not, but a regular exercise program might help. A review of studies stretching back to 1981 concluded that regular exercise can improve mood in people with mild to moderate depression. It also may play a supporting role in treating severe depression.

Another study, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 1999, divided 156 men and women with depression into three groups. One group took part in an aerobic exercise program, another took the SSRI sertraline (Zoloft), and a third did both. At the 16-week mark, depression had eased in all three groups. About 60%–70% of the people in all three groups could no longer be classed as having major depression. In fact, group scores on two rating scales of depression were essentially the same. This suggests that for those who need or wish to avoid drugs, exercise might be an acceptable substitute for antidepressants. Keep in mind, though, that the swiftest response occurred in the group taking antidepressants, and that it can be difficult to stay motivated to exercise when you’re depressed.

A follow-up to that study found that exercise’s effects lasted longer than those of antidepressants. Researchers checked in with 133 of the original patients six months after the first study ended. They found that the people who exercised regularly after completing the study, regardless of which treatment they were on originally, were less likely to relapse into depression.

A study published in 2005 found that walking fast for about 35 minutes a day five times a week or 60 minutes a day three times a week had a significant influence on mild to moderate depression symptoms. Walking fast for only 15 minutes a day five times a week or doing stretching exercises three times a week did not help as much. (These exercise lengths were calculated for someone who weighs about 150 pounds. If you weigh more, longer exercise times apply, while the opposite is true if you weigh less than 150 pounds.)

How does exercise relieve depression? For many years, experts have known that exercise enhances the action of endorphins, chemicals that circulate throughout the body. Endorphins improve natural immunity and reduce the perception of pain. They may also serve to improve mood. Another theory is that exercise stimulates the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, which may directly improve mood.

Besides lifting your mood, regular exercise offers other health benefits, such as lowering blood pressure, protecting against heart disease and cancer, and boosting self-esteem. How often or intensely you need to exercise to alleviate depression is not clear, but for general health, experts advise getting half an hour to an hour of moderate exercise, such as brisk walking, on all or most days of the week.

 

[dieworkwear]



Again, as I said earlier in this thread's history, I'm not trying to say running laps is going to magically cure depression. Every case is different, and, just as certain people don't respond to certain types of meds, regular exercise isn't going to be the right treatment for everyone. However, it is a very, very useful approach, particular in mild to moderate cases. I should also note that exercise provides similar improvements in anxiety disorders, which makes sense given their common comorbidity.

As a daily runner, I agree with this. I hope I didn't step too far and mischaracterize other people's arguments. My point really was that people arrive at the decision to commit suicide through many different paths, and some of those paths are very unlike the others.

That said, I've personally found running to be a great way to lift the spirits. It's why I run and continue to run.

 

[JLibourel]



That said, I've personally found running to be a great way to ruin my knees. It's why I no longer continue to run.

Fixed

 

[Thomas]



(...)
I posted a bit of research on the topic below. I thought it was particularly interesting that SSRIs provided quicker results, but exercise provided longer-lasting improvement. I wonder if that's tied to the fact that exercise represents a lifestyle change, rather than simply a treatment option.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Exercise-and-Depression-report-excerpt.htm

With you, G. I used to be a pretty grouchy bitchy sumbitch, but regular activity changed that, I've been at it since college, and never looked back.

As a daily runner, I agree with this. I hope I didn't step too far and mischaracterize other people's arguments. My point really was that people arrive at the decision to commit suicide through many different paths, and some of those paths are very unlike the others.
That said, I've personally found running to be a great way to lift the spirits. It's why I run and continue to run.

Fair point.

Fixed

Jan, running isn't what did your knees in: it was all the sex you had in the 70's. It's a miracle your back still holds you up!

 

[JLibourel]



Jan, running isn't what did your knees in: it was all the sex you had in the 70's. It's a miracle your back still holds you up!

Actually, I think I had more in 80's than the 70's.