New/york boston trip

[jcusey]

10,000 dollars for a pair of shoes is an insult. Were I the richest man in the world I would not spend more than 500 dollars for a pair of shoes (and that is REALLY pushing it, the C&J double monk I bought was 411 delivered, the Albaladejo will be 370). I might buy a pair of shoes for 500 and give the rest to charity, or maybe, buy another 3 Centofanti suits.

Lattanzi is in a totally different class from the brands that you mention. In terms of quality of materials and quality of construction, there may be other makers that are equal, but I doubt that there are any that are superior. In addition, the Lattanzis in question are bespoke rather than ready-to-wear, and the that adds significantly to the price. That being said, Lattanzi collects a very hefty premium for the Lattanzi name, and it's very difficult to argue that $4000 to $10000 for a pair of bespoke shoes represents a good value. Remember, though, Lobb St. James, Lobb Paris, and Berluti all charge close to $4000 for a pair of ordinary calfskin shoes. The $10000 figure is probably for something like a Norwegian-welted crocodile wholecut.

If you don't think that there can be shoes that are worth more than $500 per pair, then don't spend more than $500 per pair. Just don't cast aspersions on those who do: their evaluation of value may differ from yours.

I would be VERY curious who would spring for such a thing.

Probably someone who can afford it and who has a thing for shoes. I would never spend $150,000 for a car. Heck, I wouldn't even pay $30,000 for a car. But if you have the money and it makes sense to you to do so, then I have no problem with it.

 

[fopkid]

apropos of clothing in the boston area, john kerry apparently is suited by rizzo, a custom tailor in cambridge: http://apnews.myway.com/image....31KL2O0 google turned up only one substantive hit on the place: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...05-bigpic.html does anybody on the board have experience with them?

 

[brescd01]

I think inherent in being a connoisseur is to cast aspersions on that which one finds unacceptable. To MY taste, wearing things that are poor value, is unattractive, and I am entitled to this aesthetic. If you refer to my "brand recognition" thread on Ask Andy, you will see that I see the inflation of the value of a name, to be pernicious. And even if Lattanzis have not been poisoned by the inflation of their name-value, I believe it poisons the market. A $10,000 shoe is also inaccessible to most connoisseurs, leaving it for those who cannot appreciate it. I think that also has a pernicious effect, just as expense account-ers can ruin a restaurant business. This is not a moral issue, but an aesthetic one, and I am entitled to my aesthetic sense. The issue was not "Would I spend x for y," but "If I COULD spend x, would I buy y?" the answer would be yea on the Aston Martin (I think, though I might get too neurotic about protecting it) and nea on the Lattanzis. I should have added that I have no problem wearing RTW shoes. I do understand that someone who needed bespoke would have to raise his ceiling a bit. This discussion brings to mind the audio magazine "The Absolute Sound," which was quite influential and I believe still is for high-end audio devotes. This caused the creation of "Hi Fi Heretic," which specialized in high end audio that represented good value. What we need is a sort of high-end Consumer Reports that specializes in fashion. There is a French quarterly fashion mag ("Dandy") that actually does do reports like CR. I have scanned one and you can see how they are critical of a high-end garment, as well as appreciative:

 

[A Harris]

It should be noted that the average price for bespoke Lattanzi's seemed to be between $4,000 and $5,000. Only a few shoes were double that.

 

[Phil]

a good buddy of mine just paid $7200 for a flat screen tv. Considering my tv is 17 years old and actually has dials on it, I found the purchase a little "head stratching". However, he was thrilled with it and I am sure it will give him years of pleasure. This buddy of mine and myself went out to dinner after work last week, and I showed up straight from work (suit & tie). He commented on my shoes, which were a beautiful acorn antique Edward Green, and asked how much they cost. Upon telling him he nearly fainted. He told me he hadnt bought a pair of shoes in 5 years, and they were rockports, on sale, from an outlet. The moral of the story is one man's flat screen plasma tv is another man's edward green shoes. I try to make it a point never to judge a man by his purchases.

 

[jcusey]

I think inherent in being a connoisseur is to cast aspersions on that which one finds unacceptable. To MY taste, wearing things that are poor value, is unattractive, and I am entitled to this aesthetic.

That's not an aesthetic. That's a value judgment. The point I'm trying to make is that just because something is a poor value to you, it doesn't mean that it's poor value to everyone. Lattanzi is unique. Nobody else can do what they do exactly as they do it (there are, of course, other shoemakers whose technical excellence is equivalent to Lattanzi, but those others can't make a Lattanzi shoe any more than Lattanzi could make a Berluti or Cleverley shoe). If someone wants exactly what Lattanzi offers and finds the result of the Lattanzi bespoke process to be perfect, who are you to say that that person is getting poor value? I've purchased C&J Handgrade shoes before for less than $400. I've also bought more than one pair of EG shoes at over $800. I wear the EG shoes all the time, but I don't wear the C&J shoes much at all. Which shoes are a better value? More than that, the cost of an item is only a matter of concern for the person buying it and the person or company selling it. If you're not one of those two parties, then it's none of your business.

And even if Lattanzis have not been poisoned by the inflation of their name-value, I believe it poisons the market. A $10,000 shoe is also inaccessible to most connoisseurs, leaving it for those who cannot appreciate it.

There are some legitimate connoisseurs on this board, but most of us are dilettantes. I may know something about clothes and shoes, but I recognize that I'm in the latter category, not the former. It will ever be the case that significant portion of the buyers of high-end goods won't appreciate the quality and the craftsmanship of those goods. Lattanzi could charge $2000 for a pair of shoes (and given the 40+ hours necessary for highly skilled craftsmen to produce a pair of bespoke shoes, $2000 is well nigh a bargain), and they would still be inaccessible to the vast majority of connoisseurs. So what? The idea that the world consists of bourgeois conoisseurs and the philistine rich is contrafactual.

I think that also has a pernicious effect, just as expense account-ers can ruin a restaurant business.

If you ask the people in the high-end shoe business, I think that most will say, "Thank God for Lattanzi." The profit margins on handmade shoes are slim, and makers like Lattanzi raise the profile and prestige of the trade so that other small makers can survive. I want bespoke shoemaking to survive as a craft, and the only way that it can is for it to be profitable. If that means that most of the goods have to be sold to people who have no real appreciation for quality (and it does), so be it. All that means is that it's more accessible for me.

This is not a moral issue, but an aesthetic one, and I am entitled to my aesthetic sense.

This isn't a question of morals or aesthetics. It's a question of spending priorities. You're entitled to your point of view, but you should have some measure of respect for others who have a point of view different from yours.

I should have added that I have no problem wearing RTW shoes. I do understand that someone who needed bespoke would have to raise his ceiling a bit.

I don't have a problem with RTW shoes, either. Virtually nobody needs bespoke anything (and that includes bespoke suits, by the way). Bespoke shoes are a luxury, and if someone wants that luxury and can afford it, more power to him.

What we need is a sort of high-end Consumer Reports that specializes in fashion. There is a French quarterly fashion mag ("Dandy") that actually does do reports like CR. I have scanned one and you can see how they are critical of a high-end garment, as well as appreciative:

What do you think this board is?

 

[jcusey]

a good buddy of mine just paid $7200 for a flat screen tv. Considering my tv is 17 years old and actually has dials on it, I found the purchase a little "head stratching". However, he was thrilled with it and I am sure it will give him years of pleasure. This buddy of mine and myself went out to dinner after work last week, and I showed up straight from work (suit & tie). He commented on my shoes, which were a beautiful acorn antique Edward Green, and asked how much they cost. Upon telling him he nearly fainted. He told me he hadnt bought a pair of shoes in 5 years, and they were rockports, on sale, from an outlet.

My brother is deaf in one ear. He had been out of college two or three years and finally had enough money to consider buying nicer things, and one day, he found himself in a high-end audio store. After shopping for awhile, he took a step back and said to himself, "What the hell am I doing? I'm deaf in one ear. I can't tell the difference." So he went to Best Buy or someplace like that and bought some cheapo stereo system. As for the shoes, I've learned from hard experience never to tell anyone who doesn't have a thing for shoes how much they cost. I'll tell people the maker, but not the price. If they're truly interested, they can figure it out.

 

[jimboni]

As for the shoes, I've learned from hard experience never to tell anyone who doesn't have a thing for shoes how much they cost. I'll tell people the maker, but not the price. If they're truly interested, they can figure it out.

Most people have a real problem with shoes that cost more than Cole-Haan or Johnston and Murphy, so my usual answer to enquiries about what something cost is "Nunya damn business." That is, unless I happened to get a great deal on something...

 

[AlanC]

Jcusey, excellent response. Luxury goods are never a necessity. One must be careful not to be resentful of whatever one cannot afford (which for me is just about everything&#33

. Also, it is well to keep in mind, as jcusey alludes, that the highest end drives the market. A top maker might move beyond your means, but if the demand truly is there another maker will step in to meet it at a price you can (more) afford. That is until they're able to charge more, too. Then look for another maker to move in. The high end also sets the tone for the industry (whatever the industry may be) by giving a standard of excellence for others to strive toward.

 

[bengal-stripe]

10,000 dollars for a pair of shoes is an insult.... But a ten thousand dollar shoe is just wrong.

What David referred to as $ 10,000 shoes is probably a pair of bespoke shoes made within the "Progetto Zintala". Well, that's got a few more bells and whistles attached. It includes a flight (business class) from virtually anywhere in the world to the factory, where you'll meet the Master, discuss your shoes with him, have your measurements taken, get the last and the pattern made within a few hours, the trial shoe clicked and closed (cut and stitched) and at the end of the second day before you head home again, you've had the trial shoe fitted and you know all is well underway and the finished product arrives back home a few weeks later. That package costs $ 10,000 and includes flight, bed (4 star hotel), board, 2 days in the Master's company and probably Mama Lattanzi's handwritten recipe for her spaghetti sauce ("that sauce made my bambino, so good a cobbler"). Oh, I forgot, the shoes are included as well. For those who like that sort of thing and can't wait to book, log in at http://www.zintala.it/ Then click on the home page (bottom left) on Zintala Project, where you'll get an exact description and an e-mail address to place your order. (Sorry, I'm unable to provide a link, as this is a flash separate window.) A word of warning, the site is painfully slow and the music is excruciating.

 

[LabelKing]

Such awkward English.

That site, and music is a bit tacky. It is more suited for an enviromentally inclined entity than a shoe atelier.

 

[brescd01]

Jcusey, we will have to agree to disagree. I am surprised that with your efforts at refinement in so many dimensions, you are not interested in being refined in the dimension of price as well, because this is one more aspect of a fine handicraft. I cannot say NEVER, but I rarely found a good store that did not also offer good value. Usually wacko prices (in my experience) suggested the interference of marketing in a craftsman's business. And by the way, how do you suggest I "respect" the person who buys the 10,000 dollar Lattanzis? I have posted my purchases with accurate prices, and I have received both compliments and criticism. The latter is no disrespect. This is a board for the critical appraisal of fashion, and I am appreciating cost as one more aspect of fashion.

 

[jcusey]

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I am surprised that with your efforts at refinement in so many dimensions, you are not interested in being refined in the dimension of price as well, because this is one more aspect of a fine handicraft.

What in the world does this mean? "Refined in the dimension of price?" God does not hand down the proper pricelist from on high. I recognize that what I value might be different from what other people value, and I can't begin to a canonical correct universal value to a pair of bespoke shoes or a bespoke suit or a sportscar. Value judgments such as these are intensely personal, they are properly a matter between the buyer and the seller, and I don't presume to make pronouncements for others.

I cannot say NEVER, but I rarely found a good store that did not also offer good value.

Of course, but good value is relative. I think that Gravati shoes represent outstanding value. Most of my friends and coworkers would have a heart attack at the suggestion that they spend $400 on a pair of shoes. You think that Joseph Centofanti offers good value. I would wager that most of your colleagues would rather gnaw off a hand than spend $2400 on a suit.

Usually wacko prices (in my experience) suggested the interference of marketing in a craftsman's business.

There is no question that these are salad days for Silvano Lattanzi, and there's likewise no question that good press and savvy marketing play important roles along with impeccable craftsmanship and design creativity. Are the prices high? Yes, they are. Are they wacko? Go throught the archives and read what shoefan wrote about what it takes to make a handmade shoe. Tell me how much you think that ought to cost. More importantly, tell me how it is that you know better the value that T4phage and others who have purchased Lattanzi bespoke shoes ought to place on those shoes than they do.

And by the way, how do you suggest I "respect" the person who buys the 10,000 dollar Lattanzis?

And why would you not unless you're also willing to concede that others need not respect the values that dictated that you purchase your high-dollar shoes (and yes, out there in the real world, what you spent on your Alfred Sargent and Crocket & Jones shoes would be considered high-doller) and your bespoke suit? Provided that purchasers of Lattanzi shoes came by the money they spend honestly, why should their speding habits have any impact on you whatsoever?

I have posted my purchases with accurate prices, and I have received both compliments and criticism. The latter is no disrespect. This is a board for the critical appraisal of fashion, and I am appreciating cost as one more aspect of fashion.

It's perfectly appropriate to write that Lattanzi shoes don't represent good value to you or that you think that Vass or Cleverley or Berluti or whoever offers better value or a better shoe for the money. What's not appropriate is the belief that you can speak for others or that your value judgments represent holy writ.

 

[Steve B.]

OK Guys, I think this argument's gone on long enough and is getting personal. Both sides have good points, although I happen to agree with jcusey on this one. bresc- I think if you purchased a pair of EGs or Vasses you'd understand the shoe thing better. As Darth Vader said to Skywalker (paraphrased in my best James Earl Jones basso profundo)- "Come over to the dark side

" I'm wondering how you got Centofanti to make you a suit for only $2400

I think I hear the engines firing up on a certain Boeing Business jet...

heading over to Italy for some Lattanzis.

 

[jcusey]

I think I hear the engines firing up on a certain Boeing Business jet...

Now there's something I would definitely have if I lived in Jcuseyland.

Edit: And nice to see that you're making use of all the spiffy new emoticons.