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MoneyWellSpent's Southern Trad Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Caustic Man, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. crdb

    crdb Well-Known Member

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    Surely as a military man you would approve of well pressed shirts and trousers? I think a lot of people have genuine, healthy pride in themselves and that includes keeping squared away (bonus points if you don't have a crease across the top of your sleeve). My impression of the Pitti lot is of calculated messiness, anyway.

    I do think dressing well is an art, but I also think art is the highest form of propaganda (using emotional appeal to achieve your goals). "The best" is highly subjective, dependant on the wearer and critic's shared backgrounds, context, weather, location, and so on. Certainly there is overlap between some of your more "Ivy" fits and what people wear in the UK casually, other stuff just looks really "American" to me (not in a good or bad way, just American which I guess means Southern Trad, for example the love of button downs with a tie).

    I used to look down on these more casual American habits but over time learnt to appreciate American (middle class, anybody can make it, individual rights, etc.) values and see the clothing as representing a pride in them which I can only agree with, although I'm not yet wearing button downs with my ties (except for once in Tokyo where I ran out of proper shirts, which marked me so much I still remember it years later).
     
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  2. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    There are two types of military people. Lifers, and the reasonable. Lifers live their whole lives, even after their careers are over, as if they were in the military. I am not a lifer.
     
  3. crdb

    crdb Well-Known Member

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    Three types. You forgot the Marines.
     
  4. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    They don't count as a branch of the military, so much as a minimally trained pack of beasts. Kind of like navy dolphins.
     
  5. smittycl

    smittycl Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, not quite an "either/or" as there are many gradations but the lifers can be a bit annoying. I have many friends who can't let go. I dumped all my gear (minus a few things for eventual Grandkid purposes) and my dress uniform is in storage, unworn since 2011. Funny, but I spend a lot time teaching recent retirees (or soon-to-retire folks) how to dress. [​IMG]

    Amusingly, Navy officers tend to dress well as they are required to wear civilian clothes quite often in their careers. Army is the worst.
     
  6. Count de Monet

    Count de Monet Well-Known Member

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    Why is that?
     
  7. smittycl

    smittycl Well-Known Member

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    Part of their professional training. They spend a great deal of their time at the Naval War College in Providence wearing civilian clothes. Serves them well in future assignments where suits are required.
     
  8. crdb

    crdb Well-Known Member

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    "Khang Khay, 23 March 1954: I come back from HQ, where I had the honour of evolving in the highest spheres. Rubbed myself against the winners of tomorrow, the most pure of spirits. Have seen upfront our Gods of War, truly shining with Glory, spread with decorations and accordingly ranked. I had gone there like a nuclear-tipped shell to fix questions which in my candour of primitive bushrunner, ignorant, covered in dirt, I thought urgent and of an extreme importance. But seen from below, nothing has importance except the heat, naps, the sun setting over the banks of a large, famous, peaceful river. The cold soda-cognac on the rocks, the little reunions at the club with tie, trousers and long sleeves, where the "AFAT" (Female Auxiliary of the Ground Army) ladies tell to our stars all the little gossips of the Court, in between two laughs, two arms and two little shakes of a behind so weakly satisfied."


    - Jean Sassi (bad translation mine)
     
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  9. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I wish I knew the context of that. Very interesting, and peculiar.
     
  10. smittycl

    smittycl Well-Known Member

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    Reads like French Para in Vietnam, grungy from the field, back at HQ observing the well put-together staff officers and their women... off to Wikipedia...

    ...and I was right. He was a Jedburgh as well. Tres cool.

    "Jean Sassi (11 June 1917 – 9 January 2009) was a French Army colonel and intelligence service officer, former "Jedburgh" (BCRA) of France and Far East. Commando chief of the SDECE's 11th Shock Parachutist Regiment (11e Régiment Parachutiste de Choc). Maquis chief in French Indochina through the GCMA (1953–1955).
    During the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in April 1954 Jean Sassi led Mèo partisans (GCMA) in Operation Condor."
     
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  11. crdb

    crdb Well-Known Member

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    - edit - never mind, was going off topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  12. smittycl

    smittycl Well-Known Member

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    Just a bit. I had your original reply via email before you redacted. Not sure of your leanings but take Trinquier with a grain of salt. French writing on their involvement in Vietnam can be quite convoluted (much like ours). Flash forward to Algeria and Trinquier was there overtly while Ausserssas was there covertly and committing war crimes of the worst kind.

    Anyway, let's not tarnish the Southern Trad site with awfulness.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  13. Van Veen

    Van Veen Well-Known Member

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    That's a great saying. I'd even go so far as to say, "it should take someone five days to realize you're well dressed."

    There's a guy I work with that always dresses well, every day. (There's no dress code at all.) Nothing impressive by SF standards, but he does the casual trad thing very well with lower end brands. Took me a couple of weeks to realize it. Now I have a lot of silent respect for the guy, but it's weird to go up to someone and say, "hey, you dress really well every day," vs. "I like your shirt!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
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  14. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting observation. For me personally I'd say that is far more desirable than the very "out" version of dressing well that is popular on SF. That style of dressing well is the root of people thinking someone is over dressed. It has nothing to do with wearing tailored clothes, ties, or trousers everyday (at least usually). It is often because the person is TRYING to be showy. Or perhaps it's because the person is being showy without knowing it. In any case, it is my philosophy that if someone is noticing me for my clothes (outside of the internet anyway) then they are noticing the wrong thing. On instagram or SF it's different because I'm offering those images to the public. IRL I don't present myself as a clothing guy.
     
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  15. Count de Monet

    Count de Monet Well-Known Member

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    Man, I wished you would have left it up. Where else could we have found a single thread including pictures of UGa sorority girls on game day and a discussion of OSS/CIA involvement in French Indochina?

    I was just about to adroitly point out how John Houseman was quintessentially trad in Three Days of the Condor, playing a CIA character obviously based on William "Wild Bill" Donovan and Allen Dulles, who went to Colombia and Princeton respectively. Houseman in real life was born in Romania but it was SOUTHERN Romania.

    So, there you go.
     
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  16. Van Veen

    Van Veen Well-Known Member

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    It's not even just Styleforum or #menswear or Pitti. It's a whole generation of guys who dressed like slobs through HS and college, then decided they want to dress well, and found a bunch of blogs with "dapper" and "gent" and "man" in the title. Or decided to emulate the way sportscasters or athletes dress. (Those guys are paid to be characters.)

    This is why I really don't like the gingham shirt. It's the first thing a lot of guys seem to buy when they decide they want to dress well. It's not boring like a plain shirt! I wish I could go back in time 5 or 10 years and tell myself to buy more basics: one good white oxford instead of the three patterned shirts I got on sale, for example.
     
  17. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I think hats very insightful. The trend moves toward the showy because those are the kind of people who make blogs. Of course I don't know this to be true, but it seems like a plausible scenario.
     
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  18. crdb

    crdb Well-Known Member

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    I just assume all narrators are unreliable and biased. There is some sort of objective truth but you have to painstakingly reconstitute it via analysing as many viewpoints as you can get your hands on, discounting each source by its assumed bias (e.g. sources may praise themselves, and/or also paint a picture that matches what the government of the time wanted to project) and applying your own set of values evolved through first hand observation, deduction and trustworthy sources.

    Sometimes it's quite hard to get a good view of the other side. E.g. I've found it near-impossible to find ZANLA or ZIPRA sources whilst Rhodesian sources abound. The closest you can get is critical accounts from third parties that are heavily biased towards one outcome and world view.

    It's the same here. Anonymous account comes and for his first post tells us just how GREAT this new brand of ties made in Bulgaria are, I'll probably report it as promotional spam. uppr_crust or Andy57 saying the same, I'll buy one off the recommendation. Of course, discussions to establish credibility and the objectivity of various opinions are the most fun - as we have seen amply on this thread.
     
  19. Van Veen

    Van Veen Well-Known Member

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    – from Ivy Style
     
  20. smittycl

    smittycl Well-Known Member

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    You end up standing out, very subtly, if you pay attention to fit and fabric. Doesn't take much. Just wear decent stuff that's properly tailored and you'll meet the "five minute" scenario discussed above. No need to be flashy with scarf and gloves sticking fingers up out of breast pocket. I've always hated that contrivance. Worked only for Italian race car drivers from 1925.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
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