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Look of the C&J 337 last

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Tibo, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. tiger02

    tiger02 Well-Known Member

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    I have a US11E foot and couldn't even get the US11.5 size in 337 last to fit. They are way too long and narrow for me. I think this sizing down business is for the narrow-footers.
    I had a similar experience with Grenson MPs--the Paul Stuart ones no less. Wide American feet seem to have narrow heels, relative to their English brethren. Can't say for sure with the 337.

    Tom
     
  2. sysdoc

    sysdoc Well-Known Member

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    So what do you recomend for maintainance - cream or wax polish?
    As a straight believer in mirror shine I have very little use for cream, unless I use it for a complex antiqueing job that can't be achieved with wax alone. I suggest to use either Avel's Saphir Pate de luxe or Lincoln wax polish. It's required for both mirror shine as well as water proving. Cream is IMO the "lazy man's" shoe care. It's easy to apply and you get a reasonably easy shine that doesn't look too bad. It is water based and thus neither useful to protect your shoe from bad weather, nor capable of allowing a full blown mirror shine. Shoenut might be the best person in the forum to advise us on proper long-term care for shoes. He seems to own shoes that have been made many decades ago. I'd love to hear what he has to say about "dried out" leather and how to fight it.
     
  3. TKDKid

    TKDKid Well-Known Member

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    Ended up buying a pair of Westfields in a 9.5EUK (I wear a 10DUS).
    I love the Westfield! What colour did you get? I think it looks particularly nice in dark brown.

    Re the shoe cream thing, my understanding is that you're not supposed to use shoe cream on shoes that come with antique finishes, because you'd just end up covering up the antiquing. If this is the case, then presumably this would apply to shoes in general. Having said that, it may be that neutral cream or even shoe conditioner is the answer, but I've not used either before so not sure what the effect on antiquing would be.
     
  4. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    Please do yourself as well as your new pair of shoes a favor and forget the cream - at least for the time being. Applying cream will ruin the original (supposedly high-gloss) polishing and you'll have a good amount of work at your hands to re-establish the shine. I wouldn't know how long it would have to take for the leather of a brand new shoe to "dry out". IMO it's a myth altogether. I've yet to come across a "dried out" shoe in any high-end shoe shop this side of the universe.

    If you want to make sure your new pair of shoes will be safe from the weather, go and give it a good mirror shine polish. This will make the upper water repellent and the pair will look as perfect as a new pair should.


    It is not a "myth." It is the finish, not the leather itself, that dries out. When I was selling shoes, I saw more than one pair whose finish split or crazed upon the first or second wearing, and one of these pairs was Allen Edmonds. These people did not follow our advice to apply a cream.

    Cream and wax have very different functions. Wax is a surface treatment that helps protect against liquid damage; cream soaks in to an extent and rejuvinates the finish, mainly with lanolin. It is not at all difficult to rebuild a mirror shine (if, in fact, a mirror shine is your thing). One good waxing over a cream buff will do the trick.

    TKDkid, do yourself a favor and DO apply the cream. Maybe your finish won't become problematic, but why on Earth would you take that chance?
     
  5. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    Cream is IMO the "lazy man's" shoe care. It's easy to apply and you get a reasonably easy shine that doesn't look too bad. It is water based and thus neither useful to protect your shoe from bad weather, nor capable of allowing a full blown mirror shine.

    This is pure nonesense. First of all, wax is no easier (or harder) to apply. Second, the main function of cream is not "shine." Not everyone here shares your love of the gaudy Berlutti look. Third, creams are not water based, they are lanolin or oil based, with some waxes in there.
     
  6. sysdoc

    sysdoc Well-Known Member

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    This is pure nonesense. First of all, wax is no easier (or harder) to apply. Second, the main function of cream is not "shine." Not everyone here shares your love of the gaudy Berlutti look. Third, creams are not water based, they are lanolin or oil based, with some waxes in there.
    I love it, the modesty, knowledge and eloquency [​IMG].
    The finish dries out? The finish split up or (doh?) crazed upon? Is that based on actual research or significant technical or scientific knowledge? Is the "our" in your comment meant as pluralis majestatis?
    How nicely put! Methinks that there's plenty else you ain't sharing. Knowledge, experience and manners come to mind ... and in fact lots of shoes SANS split upand crazed upon finish. You don't happen to just be a wise and modest teacher, but also the shareholder of one or several shoe cream labels, do you? Anyway, TKDKid and rajesh06, please do what you think is best and base your future decision on your own experience rather than on the ramblings in this forum. Different to certain others, I don't claim to know it all. Before I'd take any advice out of these fora for gospel, I'd use common sense teamed up with technical knowledge ... ... and who likes this gaudy Berlutti look anyhow ... besides bad boy sysdoc?
     
  7. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    Good God, did you get up on the wrong side up bitchy this morning? I notice, sysdoc, that you get offended by pretty much anybody that disagrees with you. You haven't had a problem with finish drying out, so it must not happen. Very logical. Please accept the fact that these things do happen. Your blind prejudices against cream...which I don't understand (and I never advised against wax in any fashion -- I use it myself)...are just odd.
     
  8. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    As to the pokes at my language:

    "Crazed" is a term used in pottery and refers to a sort of spider-web cracking which develops in a glaze. I was saying that people can develop a crazed pattern (also known as "crazing") in their finish upon the first or second wearing without rejuvinating the finish.

    "Our" advice came from me, the owner, the manager, and other employees who offered said advice upon recommendations from Allen Edmonds, Rockport, Florsheim, and perhaps other shoe companies we sold (I don't remember if the others specified it or not).

    I know you want desperately to be a high authority, but please try to be civil and recognize the fact that there are others out there who have knowledge as well.

    EDIT:
    ... and who likes this gaudy Berlutti look anyhow ... besides bad boy sysdoc?

    I never said nobody did. I said not everyone did. Please improve your reading efficiency.
     
  9. sysdoc

    sysdoc Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] I'm being totally benevolent. Seriously. Now let's see, what have we got here?
    This is pure nonesense.
    Your blind prejudices against cream...
    pokes at my language
    I know you want desperately to be a high authority
    [​IMG]
    I notice, sysdoc, that you get offended by pretty much anybody that disagrees with you.
    Sounds like projected self-analysis to me and a rather precise one at that. I admit to getting offended when my words are labeled "pure nonsense". There's few who wouldn't. See above for further (clumsy) ad-hominem attacks coming from you.
    please try to be civil and recognize the fact that there are others out there who have knowledge as well.
    I politely suggest you take some of your own medicine. Other than that, I'm done skirmishing with you. I might not be quite as desperate after all. [​IMG]
     
  10. rajesh06

    rajesh06 Well-Known Member

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    I love the Westfield! What colour did you get? I think it looks particularly nice in dark brown.

    Got the dark brown - haven't worn them yet because I'm still trying to decide how I am going to treat them before I do.
     
  11. Roger

    Roger Well-Known Member

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    If I may, I'd like to get back to one point that interests me in this discussion.
    Third, creams are not water based, they are lanolin or oil based, with some waxes in there.
    I believe that some shoe creams are, in fact, water-based. The restoration people at Allen-Edmonds have advised me of this, suggesting that they never be used as the sole treatment on shoes, but instead be covered with a water-preventive like the more standard "polish," which to most means a substance containing wax. On the other hand, I do know that some "creams" are not water-based. The really excellent German Collonil "creams" fall into this latter category. BTW, I'm told that the Allen-Edmonds Premium Shoe Polish (in the tubes) is simply rebranded Collonil cream. It thus appears that there are some creams out there that could serve as the sole shoe treatment. Certainly, A-E markets their Premium Shoe Polish this way (not considering it a cream, which they also sell).

    Thus, the question about what "creams" accomplish is still unanswered for me. Given their more liquid character, it is easy to see them as providing the nourishing and rejuvenating benefits to which Teacher refers. Perhaps it would be ideal if we knew the composition of each cream we were considering using in order to know whether they absolutely had to be followed up with a wax. This is difficult, however, since most creams (and polishes) I've seen don't indicate ingredients on the label. Nonetheless, creams do not provide a high shine, so that, if that is desired, a wax-type polish will be needed.

    Teacher, from your experience, what would you think about a shoe-care regimen that bypassed cream altogether (except for the rare instances, perhaps, in which color had to be restored), and instead consisted--after cleaning of the leather--of (a) a first application of leather conditioner--such as Lexol or the Allen-Edmonds one, for example, whose sole function is to restore moisture and suppleness to the leather--followed by (b) a final application of a paste wax?
     
  12. Teacher

    Teacher Well-Known Member

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    Sysdoc, quit attacking people and then feigning victimhood. This is far from the first time and I doubt it fools anyone.

    Teacher, from your experience, what would you think about a shoe-care regimen that bypassed cream altogether (except for the rare instances, perhaps, in which color had to be restored), and instead consisted--after cleaning of the leather--of (a) a first application of leather conditioner--such as Lexol or the Allen-Edmonds one, for example, whose sole function is to restore moisture and suppleness to the leather--followed by (b) a final application of a paste wax?

    Probably, these other conditioners would do what the cream does (though I don't know about Lexol, since I've never used it). Some people believe that wax dries shoe leather out, and they cite cracks in their shoes as evidence. It's not actually that the wax (or its solvents) dry out the leather, but rather the lack of moisture repleneshment from creams or conditioners. This is especially true of shoes that get wet or are exposed to heat.
     
  13. sysdoc

    sysdoc Well-Known Member

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    Sysdoc, quit attacking people and then feigning victimhood. This is far from the first time and I doubt it fools anyone.
    An apology would have done me just fine, thanks.
     
  14. UR003

    UR003 Active Member

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    ... The really excellent German Collonil "creams" fall into this latter category. BTW, I'm told that the Allen-Edmonds Premium Shoe Polish (in the tubes) is simply rebranded Collonil cream. It thus appears that there are some creams out there that could serve as the sole shoe treatment. ...
    I wouldn't qualify Collonil as excellent. It consists of solvents, which you do not want to use on your quality leather shoes (I know I don't). I use Saphir's Medaille d'Or Creme de Soins, which is the best cream on the market. It is all natural. It contains natural turpuntine instead of solvents. If you can't find this, or you find it too expensive (I think a tube costs approximately $16-18), you could use Saphir's Creme de Luxe or La Cordonnerie Anglaise creme (LCA is produced by the maker of Saphir and is comparable to Saphir Creme de Luxe).
     
  15. Roger

    Roger Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't qualify Collonil as excellent. It consists of solvents, which you do not want to use on your quality leather shoes (I know I don't). I use Saphir's Medaille d'Or Creme de Soins, which is the best cream on the market. It is all natural. It contains natural turpuntine instead of solvents. If you can't find this, or you find it too expensive (I think a tube costs approximately $16-18), you could use Saphir's Creme de Luxe or La Cordonnerie Anglaise creme (LCA is produced by the maker of Saphir and is comparable to Saphir Creme de Luxe).
    Collonil Waterstop cream is an oil-in-water emulsion without any solvent. It contains several different waxes, one of which is beeswax. If you are using a turpentine-based substance, then turpentine is the solvent. Most polishes contain a solvent, whether it's turpentine, Stoddard's solvent, or whatever. This is no reason to avoid them. Are you happy with your turpentine-based cream? Then it would seem that the solvent--turpentine--has done no damage to your shoes.[​IMG]
     
  16. Tibo

    Tibo Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by Tibo
    So that would mean that if you have a 8UK with other brands, you'd have a 7,5UK for a 337 Last ?

    In short, Yes.


    Interesting ... I just asked PLAL and they say I'd rather order a 8D if I have a 8E in Church's ... They say a 7,5D will be too tight. Any feedback ?
     
  17. josepidal

    josepidal Well-Known Member

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    I've been using Meltonian cream on shoes for the purpose Teacher describes, including one pair of C&J handgrades, and like how they can restore or slightly darken color before wax is applied. I've found Meltonian less harsh on shoes among all the creams available in my area, in fact, though I have no access to Saphir.

    Note that I live near the equator, so am very concerned about leather drying. I've had relatives who claim expensive shoes are a waste of money, simply because they left them in their closets without maintaining them, resulting in the leather cracking.
     
  18. Bic Pentameter

    Bic Pentameter Well-Known Member

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    Anyone out there with a US E width foot own a pair of 337 shoes? If so, how did you size down?


    My shoe size is all over the map, but I belive I am most often a US 8.5 E. I traced my foot, and faxed it to C&J. They recommended a UK7.5 in the 337 last. I thought that would be much too small for me, so I ordered the Belgrave and Weymouth in a UK 8. They were each a bit tight at first, but after a little stretching, they fit very well. I ordered the Savile monkstrap in UK8.5 and am very happy with it, but I like monkstraps loose.

    Your mileage will probably vary.
    Bic
     
  19. whoopee

    whoopee Well-Known Member

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    I'm unfamiliar with Church's but I am pretty much a 8.5E UK (D for EG) across the board and find 8E UK the best-fitting size for the 337 last. Plal are good with returns.
     
  20. Tibo

    Tibo Well-Known Member

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    I'm unfamiliar with Church's but I am pretty much a 8.5E UK (D for EG) across the board and find 8E UK the best-fitting size for the 337 last. Plal are good with returns.

    I'm sure they are, but if I can, I'd like to avoid the cost (approx. 60 USD) of sending back a pair to Plal ...
     

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