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Jones nyc suit

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by esquire., Feb 5, 2004.

  1. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I have enjoyed reading your informative posts for awhile now, but this is my first post. I am buying my first suit right now, but I probably will not wear it that much. When I went in, the salesperson immediately recommended a Jones NYC suit over the other brands. She said that in terms of quality, it was the best suit they had compared to Chaps, Calvin Klein, Kennith Cole, etc... I'm not expecting Canali-like quality, but I just want the best value and quality for the money I'm paying for this suit.

    Does anybody have any experience with a Jones suit. All I know is that Jones primarily manufactures clothes for women, so I wondered if this was a problem. The suit is a dark navy, three button. It is 96% worsted wool, 4% nylon. The fit seems okay, but I really wouldn't know any better. Of coure, I'll have to shorten the sleeves, and cuff the pants. Thank you for any help.

    Esquire.
     
  2. VMan

    VMan Well-Known Member

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    Welcome. May I ask what price you are paying? I don't doubt the quality of the suit, but there are several places where you might spend the same amount of money and get a better deal; move up a quality-level.
     
  3. Bradford

    Bradford Well-Known Member

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    I have a Jones NY suit that I bought at a resale store here in Phoenix. I would agree with the salesgirl that it is probably of better quality than the other names you mentioned. However, I am sure that you can get some ideas of even better names for a comparable price from the other members of this group.

    Where are you located, and what store were you in? It sounds like they had a fairly limited selection.


    Bradford
     
  4. Classic

    Classic Well-Known Member

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    I have a Jones NY suit and it is a good suit. But that is it.
    I agree with the others, for the amount that you are most likely being charged for the JNY, you could find better quality and IMO style.
     
  5. dah328

    dah328 Well-Known Member

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    My only experience with Jones NYC is a black wool coat where the wool is rapidly becoming more sandpaper-like and buttons are falling off faster than I can reattach them. I should have known better, and you won't find me making that mistake again. If you have the time to spend looking, I would imagine you could find better quality for a comparable price.

    Regards,

    dan
     
  6. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for the replys,

    I have a family friend who works at a dept store, and was going to use their employee discount so I probably shouldn't name the store. With the discount, it is less than around $180. This does not include alterations. This friend is going to leave soon, so I wanted to buy a suit while I still could.

    Obviously, there aren't too many suits for that price. I've heard Brook Brothers are good value, but I'm kind of skinny so I don't know how well they would fit. What are some good suits for around $300-$500, and where would I buy them. I live in Southern California. Thank you for all your help.

    Esquire
     
  7. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to add that it orignally retailed for $495, if that makes any difference. But, then again, why would anyone actually buy a Jones suit for that much money. Thanks again.
     
  8. VMan

    VMan Well-Known Member

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    Wow, for $180 I'd say go for it. If you were going to be paying the full $500 retail I would have suggested checking a Saks, Neiman Marcus, or Nordstrom's outlet store; all three of those outlets have suits in that price range or lower. If you are savvy with ebay, that would be another place to check. $300 could get you a Hugo Boss if modern style with decent quality is your goal, and $400-$500 could get you a Canali if quality and classic styling is important.
     
  9. RIDER

    RIDER Well-Known Member

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    If you are uncomfortable naming the store due to the fact that you are receiving a discount you do not deserve, maybe you should reconsider this deal. Seems like you know this is stealing.
     
  10. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Rider,

    I don't consider this stealing. This might be just semantics, but I'm going to pay for the suit. Clothing has some of the highest mark up in this consumer culture of ours, around 65%. Every company has the right to mark up their items. But, a lot of other products other than clothing is only marked up to 25%. Even with a employee discount, the company is still making a nice profit of over 40%. And, that's not including the manufacture's rebate to the retail store. I helped out this friend when he needed to buy some items, and in gratitude, he offered me the chance to use his employee discount.

    While working at that store, there were some very signifigant discounts on some items in the section where he worked so that they were actually affordable. However, management refused to let their sales associates to purchase these items. My friend was willing to buy them, without the employee discount. And, there was no funny business with the price. That was the price advertised in the papers, the price other customers were able to purchase them. But, management would have considered this larceny, and fired him if he had bought the items as they were advertised. So, I went in and bought those items for that person. According to you, this would be considered to be stealing. But, I think most people would agree that it wasn't. And, if you don't consider what I did for that person wrong, then I don't see why you would consider what that person did for me wrong either.
     
  11. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Well-Known Member

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    esquire, if you're near l.a. i noticed barneys is having another warehouse sale at the santa monica airport. i went to the one last summer and everything was 50% off retail. you should be able to pick up something nice for $400.

    using your friend's employee discount is not stealing because the companies give out this discount knowing the discount will be used to buy things for family and friends. this is why he is allowed to buy things that are not his size.
     
  12. The_Foxx

    The_Foxx Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm....don't suppose you wear a 40Reg, do you? If you're going for a first suit, I'm interested in passing on two D'avenza suits and a Dunhill. I'd be happy to email you scans of the cloth and hand-stitched buttonholes/ sewn lapels (NOT GLUED/ FUSED), etc. $150 each, and if you don't agree the condition is excellent, I'll refund 100%.
     
  13. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the 411 on Barney's. I live in Orange County, but it would probably take me more than an hour to get there. The only problem is that I really don't need a suit that much since I don't really need to wear one. I just wanted to buy one now when it was on sale as a back-up. Do you know if it also carries shoes. That's what I really should spend my money on.

    Foxx: I have no doubt that these are quality suits, and I'm interested but I'm a 38R, so I don't know if that would work and I've never bought clothes over the internet. I've heard that there some suits that just fit other body types differntly. I don't know how much the tailor could do. I'm 5'10, 150 pds. So, think skinny. I'm looking for something really conservative, so I don't have to worry about the style when I actually do have a chance to wear it. And, dark navy looks best on me. I'd also prefer side vents. SO, if any of those suits fits, let me know. Thanks.

    Does anybody else on this forum have any ideas. Could the tailor change a 40R to 38R.
     
  14. RIDER

    RIDER Well-Known Member

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    Esquire - In case you have not seen any of my other posts, I am a buyer for a group of high-end mens retail stores. I joined this forum after Steve sent us his book which included our store (after visiting us), and I came across the forum. So, trust me, if you use a employee discount and you are not an employee, it is considered stealing. Employee discounts are offered to allow employees to dress the part of their department more easily. It is not a profit center for a retailer. Also, I wish we could get the kind of margins you suggest. You are wrong on both counts - I am not aware of anything in Mens that is initially marked at 65% by anyone. Nor is anyone marking an initial at 25% - that would lead to a quick bankruptcy. So, the next time you consider this, you should introduce yourself to the store manager and inform him what you and your partner are doing since it makes so much sense. BTW, these are the sort of things that ultimately lead to higher prices for everyone.
     
  15. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the information Rider. Since you obviously have a greater background, I will have to assume what you are saying is true.

    However, this information about the mark-ups was in some book I read. Perhaps, I got confused, and this mark-up was referring specifically to women's clothing. But, it did list the mark-ups for other items, and they were nowhere as high as the mark-up for clothing. When I have the time, I will have to try to find this book again, and then we can discuss further the mark-up prices. It seems we will not be able to resolve this issue until we can agree what the markup price is. Perhaps, you can recommend some book that fully explains this.

    Since you are a buyer, perhpas you can explain what the mark-up price is. I would truly like to understand this. Let's say the store buys a dress shirt for a wholesale price of $20. What would the mark-up price of this shirt be, i.e. what would the store sell the price for at full retail price.

    Let us take the Van Huesen Dress shirts as an example. I think the full retail price is $35. Most of the time I have seen it on sale for $20. If the markup is something like 25%, then the company is losing money on every shirt they sell. This would mean that the company paid $28 wholesale for this shirt. And, these sales are not clearance sales either. But, sales that seem to be going all the time. I suspect that the shirts must have originally cost the store $20, and more likely, even less.

    Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear your response soon. Also, could you explain your statement "anyone marking an initial at 25%". I am confused as to what you were refering to. I haven't decided whether or not to buy the suit.
     
  16. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    Rider,

    According to your logic, the employee discount is only to 'dress the part of their dept. more easily.' If this is true, according to your standard, then employees at retail stores should only be allowed to purchase items from their specific area or section. If they work in men's underwear section, they shouldn't be allowed to buy electronics, much less suits then. Also, what about female employees who work in the men's dept. If we use your reasoning, women shouldn't be given a employee discount either since they're representing the men's dept, but are obviously not wearing men's clothing.

    IMHO, companies give employees discounts because it is good business. Instead of their employees buying items at their competition, these employees are given an incentive to buy from them. And, it has nothing to do with representing their dept since they could buy items from another company and customers wouldn't know the diff. These companies can sell more items, at a reduced profit, but they make it up with the volume sold. We are not talking about companies that are giving discounts of their cost.

    Rider, do you honestly think that these companies will pass down the savings to the customers. What was so revolutionary about Wal-Mart is that this company actually passed down the savings to the customer instead of keeping the profits and giving their management bigger bonuses.

    No, I didn't talk with managment. Frankly, I don't really respect them when they wouldn't allow my friend to buy something on sale, even if that was the price advertised in the newspaper and in the store. What do you think of this. You never addressed whether or not you agreed with this. Your silence seems to indicate that you absolutely agreed with the manager, and thus, disapproved of my conduct.

    I know this is going outside the thread, but do you know what ever happened to the lawsuit concerning a sales representative who sued his employer because they made him buy only their clothes.
     
  17. RIDER

    RIDER Well-Known Member

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    esquire - I won't bother with the employee discount question as I think you know what is right and wrong. I will comment on mark-up. The formula to figure mark-up is Retail$-Wholesale$/Retail$=mark-up%. So, if you buy something for $50 and sell it for $100, you marked it up 50%. Most mens clothing stores work on an initial markup of 50-57%. If you buy a shirt for $20, you would probably sell it for $42.50. Out of that you have to pay your expenses (rent, payroll, health insurance, taxes/government fees, credit card fees, accounting costs, shipping costs, etc.) There was a thread not long ago by the guys doing e-bay sales and how the costs were escalating to a difficult level - you should try selling clothes and coping with the rising health care and payroll costs. The two most flexible area's in the expence side of things are rent and payroll. If you wish to shop at a store where someone can help you, a tailor can fit you, a shoe fitter will give you proper advice and you will be treated with respect and dignity, you can expect the retailer to make 50% return on your purchase. If , however, you prefer to shop on your own, find your own dry cleaner/ tailor, guess at how a shoe will fit and generally be left to yourself to look thru merchandise that regular customers have passed on, you can expect to provide much less to the store. Of course, the problem arises when people expect to be well served at 50% off. This is what has led to outlets that market merchandise at inflated prices, sourceing from Third World countries, and a general deceptive retail environment caused by the retailers themselves. This is why it would seem to you to be ok to buy a suit with your friend at a discounted price that you have not earned. It really is the retailers fault for creating this environment of distrust between store and customer. This is something small, family owned stores like ours are always fighting. Hope this helps understand some, maybe start a new thread to get more specific.
     
  18. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    RIDER:

    I'll be the first to admit it:I was wrong about the mark-up of 65%. I couldn't find the exact source, but I did find another book explaing retail markup. In it, they defined it as: wholesale + 45% = full retail price. This doesn't include the keystone, of at least 5%, that some luxury stores use. So, including the keystone, this adds up to a markup of 50%, not 65%.

    I'm pretty sure I read 65% somewhere else, but I think that the author was using that number in reference to what it costs the factory to make and this difference to full retail price. THis is diff from wholesale price that the factory sells to the retailer and the full retail price. SOrry about the confusion.

    I should have been more honest from the beginning. This friend is really my partner. My relationship is as commited and true as any heterosexual marraige. The store gives employee discounts to spouses. However, in this country, we can't really be married, and as such, I am not recognized by my partner's company. I guess I'm still pretty bitter and angry about this. We've been together 4.5 yrs, and I was thinking bout getting a suit for our 5th anniversary together.

    I agree that retailers need to mark-up their prices to cover expenses and make a profit. But, in this book I can't find, they also listed mark-ups for other items. And, they were nowhere close to the mark-up of clothing. WHy does clothing have one of the highest mark-ups.

    Your right that stores charge this mark-up to include service. But, so many of your competitors have decided to cut expenses by getting rid of training, and thus service. My partner was telling me how they'll move employess from 1 area to another without reason. He'll be transferred to men's dept, and have to measure the customer's sizes even though he doesn't know how to.

    Thanks for the info, I truly learned a lot. Also, are outlets the only places that inflate the mark-up, to trick the customer. SOmetimes, it seems, regular retail stores do this too. It seems that certain items are always on sale, and I wonder if they were really meant to be sold at full retail. Thanks again.

    esquire
     
  19. RIDER

    RIDER Well-Known Member

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    esquire - Good point, sorry that it is a dilema for you. Our shop would give you the discount under this circumstance. AS far as this book, forget it and leave it lost. Keystone is defined as twice cost. Another words, someone is showing me shoes and I ask what they are selling for and he says "keystone plus 10". Twice cost plus $10. I don't know where that formula you qoute came from but it does not work. Anyway, if a retailer provides you with good service, good merchandise and pays it's people well enough that they are a equal part of their community, than it is fair to assume that the store has doubled it's money - they HAVE to. As far as comparisons with other industries, remember, the appliance shop does'nt have to carry 15 sizes of that particular washer. Mark up % is not the only profit consideration for a store - inventory turn is just as important. The guy selling washers might carry 25 in his store that he has an investment in and maybe he delivers 50 per month. He keeps ordering washers off of the sample he invests in (or sells off the floor and keeps his inventory at 25 washers) while selling 600 washers in the year. He turns his money quickly. A shoe store can't carry 25 pair of shoes a hope to sell 600. Finally, yes, regular stores now do carry much 'private label' merchandise that is artificially inflated to account for markdowns. The consumer has become so accustomed to sale prices that this is thought of as the only way to survive. The department stores very rarely take the markdown on the sale merchandise they sell. It's either built in to the price or charges back to the manufacturer. Small stores do not have this luxury. Private label to us is a way to avoid the sale wars that go on now with the big stores and company owned outlets. I started going to Italy to buy shoes direct simply because I could not constantly match sale prices. It's ashame really, that we have let this happen. Ultimately, the consumer decides where the industry will go.
     
  20. esquire.

    esquire. Well-Known Member

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    RIDER:

    I'm truly glad that you disagreed with the employee discount dilema, so that we are having this discussion now. I never thought about how the retail stores need to keep diff. sizes vs applicances. That was a really good explanation.

    Now that I know that keystone is just simply 2X the cost, how does your store determine that extra cost of $10 you used in that example. Is it correct to assume that higher end items which have a lower turnover will have a higher amount added onto the keystone.

    You're right about the direction of retail in this country. Unfortunately, I think its only going to get worse. I know that in business schools right now, they're using WalMart as a case study as how to succeed.

    As a small store, you probably don't get the same discounts as the retail stores because they can buy in bulk. Are you always going to be at a disadvantage to the big stores. Can you just simply return excess inventory. I know a family friend who manufactures items for WalMart, and they just simply return anything unsold.

    Personally, I find shopping at boutique stores intimidating. I much prefer the anonmity of shopping in a giant retail store.
     

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