Is becoming a lawyer a mistake?

[Lel]

With regards to paralegal work, is it crazy to think about applying to law school after working as a paralegal for a few years? I figured actual job experience would help better prepare you if you're unsure about committing to law school, and I wouldn't mind having of my own money to supplement me while I take on a huge amount of loans.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by crazyquik

I also think you underestimate the compensation of experienced non-Biglaw attorneys.
The median salary for all U.S. lawyers is $90k a year. BigLaw pays $160k base + $30k bonus the first year out of law school, more than double. I know there are many non-BigLaw lawyers who make a good income, but on a whole they make much less.

 

[Don Carlos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard that the distribution of all salaries in law is pretty far from normal. You've got extreme big-timers on one end, making tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. Then you've got BigLaw moderate big-timers, making high hundos to small millions. On the other end, you've got nonprofit or environmental lawyers, public defenders, small-town private practitioners, and so forth. There seems to be no middle ground to speak of.

When I hear a figure like $90k as the mean or median of all law salaries in the country, I'm scratching my head and wondering how real that figure actually is. It almost seems like BigLaw and Everything Else are two entirely different professions, in a way.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

It almost seems like BigLaw and Everything Else are two entirely different professions, in a way.
This is my perception as well. However, most BigLaw lawyers leave BigLaw after the first three or four years--exceedingly few (2-4% I've heard) make partner, and even then, they are likely to hover around $300-400k in compensation, not $1m. BigLaw expats tend to take in-house jobs with clients, work for the government, or move to smaller firms. Any which way, there is a fairly significant drop in income. At the end, very few lawyers go to big firms after law school, and even fewer can expect a lifetime average income over $200k. So, the $90k median winds up being pretty predictive--particularly considering that it's hard to know which path you will take, or be forced into, before you've started down the road of legal education. If you surveyed my class at U. Chicago 1L year, the vast majority would bet they're going to make partner at a BigLaw firm. Even in a good economy, that's delusional. In reality, it seems like a third of us are out of work and probably half or so are no longer in BigLaw.

 

[Don Carlos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

This is my perception as well. However, most BigLaw lawyers leave BigLaw after the first three or four years--exceedingly few (2-4% I've heard) make partner, and even then, they are likely to hover around $300-400k in compensation, not $1m. BigLaw expats tend to take in-house jobs with clients, work for the government, or move to smaller firms. Any which way, there is a fairly significant drop in income. At the end, very few lawyers go to big firms after law school, and even fewer can expect a lifetime average income over $200k. So, the $90k median winds up being pretty predictive--particularly considering that it's hard to know which path you will take, or be forced into, before you've started down the road of legal education. If you surveyed my class at U. Chicago 1L year, the vast majority would bet they're going to make partner at a BigLaw firm. Even in a good economy, that's delusional. In reality, it seems like a third of us are out of work and probably half or so are no longer in BigLaw.
Add to this the fact that job hiring is now semi-perma-fux0red, as well, so it's even harder to break into BigLaw in the first place. I guess perception and reality are usually pretty different as concerns the legal profession. Finance is much the same. Sure, you have some big timers pulling down millions+. And you have some extremely nicely compensated middle-tier people. But the vast majority of i-bankers bail after two years or so, typically moving on to middle management in in-house corporate strategy. Those who survive IB for enough time to become serious ballers are the exceptions and not the rule.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Finance is much the same. Sure, you have some big timers pulling down millions+. And you have some extremely nicely compensated middle-tier people. But the vast majority of i-bankers bail after two years or so, typically moving on to middle management in in-house corporate strategy. Those who survive IB for enough time to become serious ballers are the exceptions and not the rule.

Interesting. But my perception is that it's significantly easier to become a VP in investment banking than a junior non-equity partner at a big law firm. Yet, VPs make multiples more and it takes several years less to get there. LAWSUX.

 

[Don Carlos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Interesting. But my perception is that it's significantly easier to become a VP in investment banking than a junior non-equity partner at a big law firm. Yet, VPs make multiples more and it takes several years less to get there. LAWSUX.
Easier in terms of intellectual horsepower required, yes. Easier in terms of the difficulty of the work performed, yes. Easier in terms of endurance and thick skin required? That's where I'd say it's debatable. I'd also say that it's far easier to earn a very nice living in law, without burning out, than it is to earn a comparable living in finance without burning out. So biglaw is the much safer choice, with a higher expected value in lifetime earnings (due to far less likelihood of burnout). If we were to hold all factors equal other than work ethic and tolerance for BS, then sure, it's easier to become a VP at a bank than a junior partner at a BigLaw firm. But rarely does life hold all factors equal or constant.

 

[Huntsman]

As a 2L (part-time), I naturally did a lot of research on this before accepting. Apart from the teensie tiny percentage of lawyers who are partners at large firms, real expectations showed a distribution with a peak at about 60-80k, and another peak at $120-140k. Really, the volume in the 60-80k peak was much greater than the higher one.

~ H

 

[IUtoSLU]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Interesting. But my perception is that it's significantly easier to become a VP in investment banking than a junior non-equity partner at a big law firm. Yet, VPs make multiples more and it takes several years less to get there. LAWSUX.

The difference in finance is that first year employees make less than $100k (depending on the firm).

 

[Don Carlos]

Originally Posted by IUtoSLU

The difference in finance is that first year employees make less than $100k (depending on the firm).

Finance and law seem to have very different salary curves. In finance (at least in BB IB, etc.), you start out fairly low, do a few more years as a relative small-timer, and then suddenly skyrocket into absurdity. In BigLaw, you start out making a shitload (relative to other professions, at least), peak earlier on, then sort of plateau unless you become an outlier rockstar.

 

[ConcernedParent]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

If you're thinking that you're likely to land yourself in a legal job that can be outsourced, be pretty sure you have a real passion for the law. Most lawyers don't make much money. Most of the ones who do don't do work that can be easily sent off to India.

But but but, what do I do with my philosophy degree?

 

[Huntsman]

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

Finance and law seem to have very different salary curves. In finance (at least in BB IB, etc.), you start out fairly low, do a few more years as a relative small-timer, and then suddenly skyrocket into absurdity. In BigLaw, you start out making a shitload (relative to other professions, at least), peak earlier on, then sort of plateau unless you become an outlier rockstar.
What percentage of 'realtive smalltimers' washout before the skyrocket into absurdity? ~ H

 

[TheFoo]

As a BigLaw expat, your salary will not plateau--it will drop. It goes up very incrementally between your first and fourth years as an associate at the firm, then likely gets cut 30-50% when you leave. I don't know what the average ex-BigLaw lawyer makes per year over the long term, but I'd be shocked if it's over $200k. It's probably closer to $150k.

Also, to make the big money (anything over $200k), you're likely to be working your ass off until you retire, and it gets worse and worse the more senior you get. This is what disturbs me most about the career path. It's cliched but true: practicing law is like a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie. Nobody at a firm works harder than non-rainmaking partners.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that hours and work-life balance generally improve for bankers as they progress from analyst to associate, to VP, to MD, etc. My VP friends at bulge bracket banks in the city seem to regularly get home for a late dinner with their spouses--this cannot be said of the typical mid-level or senior associate at a big law firm.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by ConcernedParent

But but but, what do I do with my philosophy degree?

Think deep thoughts and don't go to law school. Every other philosophy major I knew in law school had trouble adjusting to legal "reasoning". It's incredibly counter-intuitive and has nothing to do with logic.

 

[Don Carlos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

It's cliched but true: practicing law is like a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie.

I've never heard that saying before, cliched or otherwise, but I like it.

Seems to be true for pretty much every client-servicing profession, in a way: law, sales, some types of finance, consulting, and so forth. The ones who make it to the top still bust their asses at the top.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that hours and work-life balance generally improve for bankers as they progress from analyst to associate, to VP, to MD, etc. My VP friends at bulge bracket banks in the city seem to regularly get home for a late dinner with their spouses--this cannot be said of the typical mid-level or senior associate at a big law firm.

Having never worked my way up a legal ladder, I probably would agree with you here. Life in finance is at its most hellish in two distinct phases. The first phase is when you're just starting out. You bust your ass to prove that you're better than the others in your class/program. The second hell-phase comes right around the transition to VP. Once you earn that chevron, you need to prove that you're worth it.