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Hand lasted vs machine lasted

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Tidybeard, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. George

    George Well-Known Member

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    Edward Green update: my shoes have not yet exploded. I am having lunch now; I will post an update later. - B
    Make sure your shirt doesn't explode then...
     
  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Edward Green update: my shoes have not yet exploded.

    It's not explosion you need to worry about, but that you have been deceived into buying something of lower quality that may or may not be as likely to explode as something of higher quality.
     
  3. George

    George Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem is that some of us are confusing artisanship for objective quality. Personally, I think work done by hand is almost always more interesting than work done by machine. I marvel at what a skilled, dexterous person can do with minimal external aid--and often, the results are, in the totality, better than what I've seen come from a machine. However, machine-made goods are often as high in "quality" as their handmade counterparts. They will often last as long doing the same job, and the workmanship is often neater and more consistent. Things done by hand are often appealing precisely because they are done by hand, and hunting for other reasons to justify their added expense, as through illusory projections of heightened utility, is more often than not an exercise in self-deception. I think it would be silly to say that a largely hand-sewn Matuozzo shirt is higher quality than a machine-made Charvet shirt merely because it is hand-sewn and perhaps required more intensive labor. However, there's nothing wrong with preferring the former over the latter because the stitches are really pretty.
    I find myself in agreement with 'The Foo'.
     
  4. pblasco

    pblasco Well-Known Member

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    Edward Green update: my shoes have not yet exploded.

    I am having lunch now; I will post an update later.

    - B


    I would be careful. The gemming might have leaked into your lunch and poisoned you...
     
  5. srivats

    srivats Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be silly to say that a largely hand-sewn Matuozzo shirt is higher quality than a machine-made Charvet shirt merely because it is hand-sewn and perhaps required more intensive labor. However, there's nothing wrong with preferring the former over the latter because the stitches are really pretty.

    The point DFWII is trying to make is that sometimes there is not enough attention paid (intentionally or otherwise) in a factory.

    Like in shoes, when it comes to stitching the welt - RTW shoes are almost always gemmed, the most probable reason being expediency (also probably due to the fact that it is expensive/as time consuming to operate a machine that does welting similar to the hand welting process). I see Gemming as a "engineering fix" - in the sense that it is a solution that makes some compromises but still produces an acceptable (to me) product. For someone like DFWII, it is not acceptable, at whatever price.

    Done right, gemmed shoes might last as long as a non-gemmed hand-welted one, or maybe even longer. His point is, why would you pay as much as you do for such a shoe? For brand name? For prestige? For Aesthetics?

    Those maybe all OK reasons ... but the reason should never be 'Out of ignorance' - this is DFWII's main point.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. furo

    furo Well-Known Member

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    The point DFWII is trying to make is that sometimes there is not enough attention paid (intentionally or otherwise) in a factory.

    Like in shoes, when it comes to stitching the welt - RTW shoes are almost always gemmed, the most probable reason being expediency (also probably due to the fact that it is expensive/as time consuming to operate a machine that does welting similar to the hand welting process). I see Gemming as a "engineering fix" - in the sense that it is a solution that makes some compromises but still produces an acceptable (to me) product. For someone like DFWII, it is not acceptable, at whatever price.

    Done right, gemmed shoes might last as long as a non-gemmed hand-welted one, or maybe even longer. His point is, why would you pay as much as you do for such a shoe? For brand name? For prestige? For Aesthetics?

    Those maybe all OK reasons ... but the reason should never be 'Out of ignorance' - this is DFWII's main point.


    I wish we could get Ron Rider back in here to discuss his disagreements with DFWII. In the gemming thread he alluded to them but hasn't offered his entire position, which goes into much detail about the rapid and blake stitching, etc. This was Ron's last post wrt this stuff in the other thread:

    Just jumped in to see what was going on on my way out of the shop, so I can't say much now, but I want to thank DW for keeping this thread going and standing by his guns. Got to respect a man who stands by what he says, even if I don't agree 100% (or in this case 70%). Hope to add some more personal perspective soon -

    Ron
     
  7. LynahFaithful

    LynahFaithful Well-Known Member

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    RJman warned me...I didn't listen. I thought that perhaps if I could just explain it better. Learn from my mistake...let it go.

    It reminds me of an old saying...I paraphrase:


    "Arguing with a jailhouse lawyer is like mud wrestling with a pig...you have to understand that the pig likes it."

    For some people it's the argument that's the attraction.


    I said what I had to say. I'm done.

    But I'll follow the thread to learn whether Vox's shoes achieve spontaneous combustion or not.
     
  8. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    I said what I had to say. I'm done.

    But I'll follow the thread to learn whether Vox's shoes achieve spontaneous combustion or not.


    It is possible that my Greens...gemming and all...are still the best shoes in the Boston restaurant from which I post this dispatch.

    If I spy any more completetly and honestly handmade shoes, I'll take a cell pic and post.

    The guy next to me is in RTW Lobb, but it's an early C&J Lobb, which we know is awful. He's had them locally resoled...even worse!

    Let me know if I should fire him.


    - B
     
  9. pblasco

    pblasco Well-Known Member

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    It is possible that my Greens...gemming and all...are still the best shoes in the Boston restaurant from which I post this dispatch.

    If I spy any more completetly and honestly handmade shoes, I'll take a cell pic and post.

    The guy next to me is in RTW Lobb, but it's an early C&J Lobb, which we know is awful. He's had them locally resoled...even worse!

    Let me know if I should fire him.


    - B


    You should beat him to death with his own shoes.
     
  10. RJman

    RJman Well-Known Member

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    The guy next to me is in RTW Lobb, but it's an early C&J Lobb, which we know is awful. He's had them locally resoled...even worse!
    They let him in to Locke-Ober with those?
     
  11. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    They let him in to Locke-Ober with those?

    [​IMG] I'm impressed that you know LO is open again for lunch, but we're at an Italian place on Beacon Hill...not great.

    I guess the the longevivity thing is the most interesting topic for me from cowboy's posts.


    - B
     
  12. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as an Italian restaurant in Boston [​IMG]
     
  13. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I wearing Edward Greens today. I will post here if they detonate. - B
    They look good on you, too..."'flash as a rat with a gold tooth," as who should say. It's Friday..."you're a trout not a steak, you're a trout not a steak ..."
     
  14. fritzl

    fritzl Well-Known Member

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    Edward Green update: my shoes have not yet exploded.

    I am having lunch now; I will post an update later.

    - B


    grant's are not meant to explode - they are kind of boring [​IMG]

    imagine the chain reaction - collective suicide and what not.
     
  15. fritzl

    fritzl Well-Known Member

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    It is possible that my Greens...gemming and all...are still the best shoes in the Boston restaurant from which I post this dispatch.

    If I spy any more completetly and honestly handmade shoes, I'll take a cell pic and post.

    The guy next to me is in RTW Lobb, but it's an early C&J Lobb, which we know is awful. He's had them locally resoled...even worse!

    Let me know if I should fire him.


    - B


    fired in three, two, one...
     
  16. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Well-Known Member

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    They look good on you, too..."'flash as a rat with a gold tooth," as who should say.

    It's Friday..."you're a trout not a steak, you're a trout not a steak ..."


    grant's are not meant to explode - they are kind of boring [​IMG]

    imagine the chain reaction - collective suicide and what not.


    fired in three, two, one...

    So far, so good.


    - B
     
  17. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    The point DFWII is trying to make is that sometimes there is not enough attention paid (intentionally or otherwise) in a factory. Like in shoes, when it comes to stitching the welt - RTW shoes are almost always gemmed, the most probable reason being expediency (also probably due to the fact that it is expensive/as time consuming to operate a machine that does welting similar to the hand welting process). I see Gemming as a "engineering fix" - in the sense that it is a solution that makes some compromises but still produces an acceptable (to me) product. For someone like DFWII, it is not acceptable, at whatever price. Done right, gemmed shoes might last as long as a non-gemmed hand-welted one, or maybe even longer. His point is, why would you pay as much as you do for such a shoe? For brand name? For prestige? For Aesthetics? Those maybe all OK reasons ... but the reason should never be 'Out of ignorance' - this is DFWII's main point.
    ^+1000 thank you. "I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect."
     
  18. sully

    sully Well-Known Member

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    I did as DWFII suggested and checked old post for pictures of his work. I found a selection of pictures in a thread called 'A bootmakers journey into shoemaking'. The boots look very fine but not the kind of thing I would wear, but to completely make these all by hand is wonderful.
    The shoes looked a little rustic to me. I'm sure well put together but not as stylish as I had hoped. I didn't realise that DWFII has only really just started to make shoes and has a wish to create shoes in a G &G , Edward Green look (both of which use gemmed insoles, machine lasting and metal nails in their heels for their RTW shoes.)
    Now I understand the wish to educate others as to what may improve the quality of shoes but lets keep it in perspective ; it is just one makers opinion at the beginning of their journey.
    It would be great to hear from other makers to get their take on it all.
    I guess they are all busy making shoes.[​IMG]
     
  19. clintonf

    clintonf Well-Known Member

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    The point DFWII is trying to make is that sometimes there is not enough attention paid (intentionally or otherwise) in a factory.

    Like in shoes, when it comes to stitching the welt - RTW shoes are almost always gemmed, the most probable reason being expediency (also probably due to the fact that it is expensive/as time consuming to operate a machine that does welting similar to the hand welting process). I see Gemming as a "engineering fix" - in the sense that it is a solution that makes some compromises but still produces an acceptable (to me) product. For someone like DFWII, it is not acceptable, at whatever price.

    Done right, gemmed shoes might last as long as a non-gemmed hand-welted one, or maybe even longer. His point is, why would you pay as much as you do for such a shoe? For brand name? For prestige? For Aesthetics?

    Those maybe all OK reasons ... but the reason should never be 'Out of ignorance' - this is DFWII's main point.


    I've been reading this thread and watching it disappear up it's own desire for "who's right and who's wrong". However, reading this single post is EXACTLY what sums up this forum - Education.

    I cannot say that I agree with most of what's said on many sides. That is not important. What is important is that there is truth in what's said. People want to "present" their truth in different ways, but it's the fact that new understanding has been given to people who otherwise, may not have known, IS THE POINT!!!

    I, for one, will happily purchase what I want to purchase. However, I will be enlightened by additional knowledge gained from threads such as this one. I cannot claim ignorance. But I can (and will) claim acceptance. Does that make me any "less" of a person?

    I'm out.

    Clint
     
  20. George

    George Well-Known Member

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