1. Welcome to the new Styleforum!

    We hope you’re as excited as we are to hang out in the new place. There are more new features that we’ll announce in the near future, but for now we hope you’ll enjoy the new site.

    We are currently fine-tuning the forum for your browsing pleasure, so bear with any lingering dust as we work to make Styleforum even more awesome than it was.

    Oh, and don’t forget to head over to the Styleforum Journal, because we’re giving away two pairs of Carmina shoes to celebrate our move!

    Please address any questions about using the new forum to support@styleforum.net

    Cheers,

    The Styleforum Team

    Dismiss Notice

Gun Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by tiecollector, Aug 10, 2007.

  1. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    

    I've shot in competitions where new shooters will straight up freeze when that buzzer goes off. They just stand there and do nothing. And that's just the stress of shooting for time. It's all about building muscle memory.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,237
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Chasing tornadoes across the plains.
    

    I'll have to disagree with you there. Muscle memory is what allows to be able to shoot reasonably well when you're fine muscle control goes out the window. Freezing is a product of poor mental conditioning.
     
  3. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    

    I disagree with your disagreement. I've been in situations were I reacted inspite of stress without consciously making a decision to do something. That's muscle memory. There is a great book on combat training, can't remember the name, but one of the anecdotes was about a WW2 machine gun team. The gunner was trained to tap his AG (assistant gunner) when he could no longer shoot so he could take over. The gunner was shot in the head and died in combat. Immediately after being shot, and probably seconds before dying, he tapped his AG, signaling him to take over. That's muscle memory. It has nothing to do with fine motor skills and everything to do with training to do something until you can't NOT do it given certain stimuli.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  4. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,237
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Chasing tornadoes across the plains.
    Sorry muscle memory does not work that way. Fine motor skills are typically controlled by higher thought processes. Gross motor skills are controlled more or less unconsciously. You walk without thinking about it. Why? Muscle memory. You get up and walk because you made the decision to do so. The entire point of practical firearms training is to get as many of the skills needed to use a firearm out of the conscious mind and into the realm of the unconscious. There is more to this too. The entire idea is to get to the point where drawing and firing is as easy as walking. No apparent thought involved, you just do. Freezing is a response associated with the fight or flight response. The brain says no go on an unconscious level and that's that. In fact the only way to override that decision is to do so using higher thought processes. I am correct in what I said earlier. It is a mental conditioning problem. If it didn't work this way brain stem CNS shots would not be the instant end to a situation. By the way you can sustain fatal head wounds and still retain the ability to make decisions and respond to situations.
     
  5. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    I'm sorry, a lot of what you've said in this thread is bollocks. Fine motor skills have nothing to do with it. Fine motor skills are mitigated by using gross motor skills when possible, not by muscle memory. Somewhere along the line it seems like you have misunderstood the objectives of combat and defensive training. Fine motor skills break down with stress, muscle memory doesn't prevent this. You use muscle memory, or more accurately, training that developed muscle memory, to ingrain gross motor techniques. There is a difference. For instance, you can train yourself to finger the slide release every time. This can become ingrained. But it is a fine motor skill so no matter how much you train it will degrade with stress to some degree. You should strive to ingrain gross motor skills because they are less susceptible to degradation due to stress. I hope this makes the difference clear.
     
  6. Mauro

    Mauro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,106
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, DC and a few months out of the year in
    @crane , caustic is correct.
     
  7. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,237
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Chasing tornadoes across the plains.
    Actually that's not true Mauro. This started with caustic saying that a new shooter freezes because of a lack of muscle memory. That is a false statement period and I'll explain it again. If your brain decides to not act consciously or unconsciously your muscles don't have the capacity to override the brain. That's physiology. The problem with freezing up is a mind problem not a gross or fine motor skill.
     
  8. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    You keep insisting on mentioning this fine/gross motor skill thing. I was the one who said that it had nothing to do with muscle memory. Looks like you're just confusing yourself.
     
  9. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    This is a blatant misunderstanding of the term "muscle memory". It doesn't mean the muscles have a mind of their own, or actual "memory". Nor does it mean that muscles can "override" the brain. Muscle memory is a term used to describe how, through repetition, the brains responses can be conditioned to do a particular thing, or set of things, given a certain stimuli. I hate to call people out, but I'm calling you out. What's your background, bro? Where did you train? Who trained you? What kind of experience do you have? I'm not trying to be a dick, and I'm not trying to say I am the god of all things tactical. I've just seen some crap come from you that might get people hurt or killed if they took your word for it. That's not cool, and I don't care if I hurt some feelings because of it. People reading this need to know.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    50,191
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Location:
    In My Douchemobile
    Suggestions for a spotting scope $100 or less? Keep in mind I want to see .22 at 100 yards. Prefer it comes with a tripod.
     
  11. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,237
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Chasing tornadoes across the plains.
    

    It's you who are confusing things. I know what the term muscle memory is. I know what gross and fine motor skills are and what level of brain function is involved in each. I also know about the associated mental processes and malfunctions that play into performance as well. You just quoted me and now you want to tell me that I blatantly misunderstand the term muscle memory? I described a physiological process and said so. Care to explain your blatant misrepresentation of what I said?

    So let's try this one more time and let's see if you can follow along. The term muscle memory is as you described. Now the reason for this conditioning is to make whatever action into one that is performed on the unconscious level or for the lack of a better term instinctive. Manipulating a firearm is a combination of fine and gross motor skills. The idea behind repetitive training (muscle memory) is to fine tune the gross motor skills. it's second function is to get the fine motor skills reduced to as near a gross motor skill as possible. In simple terms that means the manipulation and operation of the firearm is done without any real thought involved. The entire reason to do this is to get your brain's conscious thought processes out of the way so you can operate effectively and as efficiently as possible under extreme duress. It's common knowledge that in a high stress situation fine motor skills and associated brain function is diminished. You might be able to go through the draw or shouldering of a rifle with relative ease since these motions are generally considered a gross motor function. Flipping the safety, aiming and squeezing the trigger are not gross motor functions. These are the skills that you want to reduce to as close as a gross motor skill as possible and it's done by repetitive training (muscle memory). In reality "muscle memory" is brain training.

    Now that's all fine and dandy. You can practice mounting and firing a firearm 10,000,000 times and it can all end up being worth jack shit. If you don't have the proper attitude, mindset, desire and will power to fight when it's time to fight all the training in the world isn't worth much. Without a complete and thorough understanding of the mind when it's in fight or flight mode and how to control it is where most people fail in a defensive or combat situation.

    What are my qualifications? Among other things I'm one of the assholes who at one time trained guys like you. Presently I only train civilians for getting their CCW permits and occasionally I'll recert LE per POST requirements.

    Oh and one more thing. Thanks for serving in the military and doing what you could to keep the people of your country safe and secure.
     
  12. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,333
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    And I'm not even sure what that means, brah. Maybe you could clarify exactly what it is you were and what you did.
     
  13. Bhowie

    Bhowie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,099
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Location:
    Running the trap house.
    

    Moving clay pigeons at 50 yards with 2 hours of training. : rolleyes:
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    50,191
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Location:
    In My Douchemobile
    

    Hey, you fuck off. Did you see my groupings?

    Just ordered a spotting scope for $60. Won't get to use it at the range until the day before TG now though. :(
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. Bhowie

    Bhowie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,099
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Location:
    Running the trap house.
    There are a lot of studies that show the brain is affected by physiological responses very heavily. I have no doubt that shooting/combat is affected by the deep part of the brain b
     
  16. anginaprinzmetal

    anginaprinzmetal Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,550
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Location:
    west of the strip ...
    

    which one did you order ? I'm looking to get one.
     
  17. Mauro

    Mauro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,106
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, DC and a few months out of the year in
    

    This is just silly. I would love to video of a man hitting a moving clay pigeon at 100 yards with a rifle or hand gun. Hell, I would love to see at 25 yards. There is no way a new shooter would even hit clays on the regular with a shotgun at 100 yards. 83 yards ( correct me if I am wrong) is the max distance from the shooting platforms to wear the pigeon starts hitting the ground.
     
  18. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,732
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    There's another thread for Medical discussions.
     
  19. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,237
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Chasing tornadoes across the plains.
    



    Who in the fuck said the pigeons were being thrown? A clay is about 4.5 inches in diameter and you set them up in a row on the berm and then shoot them just like you do a set of plates. If Piob shot at them with his rifle he would get bored pretty damn quickly. My conversation with him revolved around getting his pistol accuracy up. He might not see his potential but I certainly do. I know with just a little bit of instruction and a good target 22 pistol I can easily show him how capable he actually is. Anyway he got what I said and as far as you two are concerned keep on assuming things. If you want to insist that it can't be done then come on out for a friendly round of clay pigeon bullseye shooting.
     
  20. Mauro

    Mauro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,106
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, DC and a few months out of the year in
    

    My bad. I thought you were implying a moving target.
    I still would be impressed if someone hit consistently a clay pigeon at 100 yards with a pistol of any caliber.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by