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Gun Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by tiecollector, Aug 10, 2007.

  1. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I would question how effective a laser would be in terms of deterrence. Sounds like you thought it would be a good idea as opposed to basing that decision on any real evidence or real life experience. I'm not hating, just trying to give you an alternate view.
     
  2. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I also would question an AR for home defense. When you are talking about high powered rifle rounds you have to take over penetration into account. Especially if you are using M855, those rounds are made to penetrate. And they will. And they will keep going.
     
  3. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    CCW holder, have book on my state's gun laws, etc.

    Plan to get a shotgun too but I've yet to find a range that will let me shoot it. What fun is a gun you can't shoot and how comfortable are you going to be in using it during a high stress situation without practice?

    @Caustic: see above. Apparently I'm not incorrect in thinking having a laser trained on one is scary. Again, the very last thing I ever want to do is pull the trigger (this should have been a hint @Mauro the type of gun owner I am), and I think the laser will act as deterrence. I'm not worried much about over penetration due to various reasons, i.e.only my wife and I, construction of my house, distance between next house, etc.

    I've also got a Glock .40 with hollow points in the night stand if I was truly worried about bullet flights.
     
  4. Mauro

    Mauro Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a Glock 23? I have one and hate it. I want the HK .45APC but I want a silver pigeon, too. I need to sell more clothes.
    I am surprised your local range won't let you use a shotgun. MD and VA both allow shotguns in there in door ranges. Some have stupid rules like " shot only" or " Slugs" only.
    Do you have a trap and skeet clun near your home? That should do the trick.
     
  5. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

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    Yes, seeing a red dot dancing on your chest is scary. Hollywood has made them famous and then the tacticool crowd just had to have them. Lasers are one of the most useless overrated pieces of hardware out there. There's also legal ramification too if you do shoot someone with a gun that has a laser. It can and will be played against you in court. Same goes for reloaded ammo, specialty ammo, other tacticool goodies and so on. Understand that this isn't me talking Piob, this is from my attorney who specializes in firearm incidents. He'll also tell you that it doesn't make sense but that's how it goes in court.

    You're also wrong about which round is most likely going to over penetrate. Your 40 is more likely going to pass through more barriers and out into the street than a "typical" 5.56. That's just physics at work.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    My state has very strong defense of castle laws and the prosecutor in my jurisdiction is very gun friendly. In order for something to end up in court you have to first be indicted.

    I'm sort of puzzled though as to how a .40 caliber hollow point will penetrate more barriers than a .223 rifle bullet. Never claimed to be a gun expert so willing to be schooled on this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  7. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    It won't. .223 and 5.56 are high pressure rifle rounds. Which isn't to say that a .40 wont over penetrate, however you gotta figure, a projectile leaving the muzzle at 3,000 fps, v. a projectile leaving the muzzle at, what, a max of 1,400 fps for +p loads, and an expanding round at that? I honestly don't know where that logic is coming from. And btw, unless you live in a log cabin, be concerned with over penetration. Just trust me on this. Or don't trust me and ask me about my experience with how far a 5.56 round can can go in an urban setting. The answer is "far".

    As to the laser thing, all I can tell you is what I've already said. No bad guy is going to stand still long enough to notice a little dot on his chest. He might notice the wildly flailing laser beam as you try to stop your hands from shaking and your heart from pounding, but that's probably it. And remember, lasers work both ways. I hope you never run into a bad guy who really wants to kill you and fires away at the big glowing source of your laser. But that's just my 0.02. My 0.02 was earned from 4 years in Iraq though, so take it or leave it.
     
  8. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    I think what you faced in Iraq is nothing like what I would face in my home. I sincerely doubt I would be the target of any sort of pro or organized home invasion type people and think if I ever face anything it'll be someone that thought they'd head up to where I live for some easy money for a fix. I also think that is a pretty remote chance and that my home alarm would scare off most of those too. Basically I'm probably never going to need any gun to defend my home and this is probably overkill.

    Thanks for confirming what I thought I knew about penetration (no homo). Also, my bedroom is such that there's about a mile between any of my outside walls and the next dwelling. It's not a log cabin but it's from from an urban setting.
     
  9. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you read my post very closely. Forgivable because I am often incoherent, but I don't think I was this time. I'm not saying your home is Iraq. Not sure where you got that from. I'm saying I have seen what rounds can do to buildings... in Iraq. Copy?

    As for your home, yeah that probably negates any concerns about over penetration. That is the only time I'd not be too concerned about it. However I home there is a mile between any of your other walls too, because if there is one thing I can say to anyone having to defend themselves, if you are planning to defend yourself in a particular place you can bet Murphy is going to come along and attack you somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  10. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    Ah, gotcha now. I was saying there was no chance I'd face an assailant like you faced in Iraq and it sounded like you were talking about someone you might have faced would have drawn a bead on you due to a laser (if you had one). Did not get in the least you were talking about buildings.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  11. Mauro

    Mauro Well-Known Member

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    Piobaire, I think since you already have an AR lower say " Fuck it" and get the .50 beuwolf upper and call it a day.
     
  12. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    Do not have an AR...yet. Only long gun currently is a plain old Ruger 10/22.
     
  13. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    10/22s are awesome
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. anginaprinzmetal

    anginaprinzmetal Well-Known Member

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    west of the strip ...
    10/22 FTW

    my home defense plan...

    1. Remington 870 with 71/2 birdshot 3 shells and 00buckshot 3 shells
    2. FNH FNX .45 ACP (15 + 1 hollow points)
    3. there may be something else but I'm not gonna tell you exactly what... :satisfied:

    if you pass through all of that then I'm fucked... :crazy:
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  15. Crane's

    Crane's Well-Known Member

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    It revolves around the projectile weight, moment of inertia, scrubbed energy, deflection, rate of deceleration and a few other things. It's also pretty much common knowledge that hollowpoints don't expand when they hit things like wood, wall board and other building materials. They act like FMJs. In our world big game hunters are the people who know about what's needed for penetration. They go with large caliber heavy slugs that are driven at moderate velocities. The 458 Lott launches a 500gr slug at 2300 fps and delivers almost 8000 pounds of energy. Shoot the same slug from a 45-70 at about 1600 or so fps and it delivers around 3000 pounds of energy. You would think the Lott would go deeper right? Test after test and real world experience says the opposite is true. The slower slug will go through a Cape Buffalo front to back but the Lott stays in the animal. I make no claim to fully understand the physics behind the hows and whys but it's hard to argue with the results of side by side tests.
     
  16. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Throat punch.
     
  17. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    There is an a serious element that is being lost here. .40 S&W and other expanding rounds do not tend to fragment. The .223 does. When entering body tissue or, alternately, gelatin blocks the round will fragment, sometimes many times over. When facing dry wall, concrete blocks, or other "intermittent barriers" the .223, or at least the 5.56 loaded to NATO specifications, will penetrate MUCH farther. So the specifics are important here.
     
  18. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    Also, I might say that all the research I have seen that says the .223 doesn't penetrate as far as the .40 or other rounds was tested on the .223 HP round. Hardly a basis for suggesting to someone that the .223 penetrates less than the .40.
     
  19. Piobaire

    Piobaire Well-Known Member

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    This is all too complicated for me. I've decided to buy an AR because I think it'll be fun to shoot at the range and I'm going to keep it locked up and put a baseball bat by the side of my bed.
     
  20. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

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