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Gaziano & Girling Appreciation & Shoe Appreciation Thread (including reviews, purchases, pictures, e

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by luk-cha, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    And the point is?

    Let me address what I think your point might be...

    At some point you have to come to the conclusion that "quality" has an objective basis. As opposed to a subjective basis. I think that argument can be made and, FWIW, I kind of do so in another thread [COLOR=FF0000]here[/COLOR].

    If you accept the basic premise, then it follows that "quality" is, by its very nature, comparative / hierarchical--good, better, best.

    Just because a shoe is GY doesn't mean that it is not good quality in the overall scheme of things. G&G may be GY but they retain so many other aspects that we associate with quality that it's hard to hold the GY against them unless you're a somewhat crusty old snab who sees his beloved Trade being lost. Not with a bang but a whimper.

    So...don't let best be the enemy of the good. Despite what you may think (if you haven't been paying particular attention) I, for one, have never said it was and I try deliberately and conscientiously to not even suggest it.

    --
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  2. luk-cha

    luk-cha Well-Known Member

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    not really! just my bespoke last as always :D
     
  3. SpooPoker

    SpooPoker Well-Known Member

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    Luk I havent seen you in forever!!
     
  4. luk-cha

    luk-cha Well-Known Member

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    still around, just dont post as much:D
     
  5. Fishball

    Fishball Well-Known Member

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    But the G&G bespoke are not Goodyear welted, they are hand welted. So, what is the point?
     
  6. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    See DWFII preceding post. The thread doesn't only concern bespoke G&Gs
     
  7. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Any qualitative element can be measured. It is necessary simply to identify the desired/undesired component or function, devise a way of measuring it in various samples, and apply a reliable calibration. SATRA does it for a living on shoes and boots, among other products. Not on G&Gs I imagine, but there’s no reason why they couldn’t.
    Fit and comfort:
    http://www.satra.co.uk/portal/page.php?id=53

    Resistance, slip/grip, etc:
    http://www.satra.co.uk/portal/page.php?id=42

    Esthetics cannot be measured, as it has no function, being uniquely in the eye of the beholder.

    Some valued members on SF have suggested that GYW shoes, on a shoe quality scale of 1 to 10, never leave 1 (whatever the make). It is not my opinion. Let’s face it, even hand-sewn shoes rely on adhesives.

    I must get out of this thread and return to one more suitable. I have nothing whatsoever to say about G&Gs.
     
  8. niklasnordin

    niklasnordin Well-Known Member

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    Without having read all the post I'd just like to add this.
    This is what I have been taught.
    Quality IS subjective. It is based on your expectations and good quality is simply defined as something that meets and surpasses your expectations,
    whereas bad quality is defined as not living up to your expectations.
    Whatever you buy, if you are happy with it and it surpasses your expectations is therefore of good quality regardless of price/brand or whatever....

    just my 2 cents
     
  9. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Qualitative traits are linked to function and can be measured. See my post above.
     
  10. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    +1

    When quality (or good and evil) is subjective, every one has a different definition and thus there is no definition...and ultimately, anything goes.

    This is also known as "relativism."
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  11. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    An interesting perspective. It won't be well received by those who hold themselves forward as the sole arbiters of quality, but interesting all the same.
     
  12. TimH

    TimH Well-Known Member

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    I can see the point being made but surely it is about craftsmanship, longevity and value for money?
     
  13. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Now you're being pedantic.

    Definition of "quality" from the Oxford Dictionary:
    noun (plural qualities)

    • 1 [mass noun] the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something:an improvement in product quality
    • 2a distinctive attribute or characteristic possessed by someone or something:

    Quality has nothing to do with good, bad or relativism. Quality is to do with meadurable traits, such as one could use to measure characteristics of a shoe, for example.

    Simply need a good, linear calibration.
     
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    That's simply not true, because, at this point, the issue is not "quality", it is whether a subjective definition of quality has any validity. If it does, then we have no basis for communication. No basis for language.

    Words have meanings...as your reference to the Oxford so aptly illustrates. That's the basis of all language and all communication. When we get to the point where it is acceptable to substitute your own meaning for commonly, historically, and Traditionally, accepted meanings, we'll all be speaking in tongues.

    Language is the basis for thought. The structure of a language is known to influence thought, philosophy, and world-view.

    If we define quality...if we define good or evil... according to our own lights, according to our own self important, self-interested standards we are fundamentally setting ourselves and our opinions above all others. Above commonly accepted definitions. Above Traditional standards. Above any need to interact with other people.

    If that's not relativism it's certainly solipsism. And perhaps more reprehensible for that.
     
  15. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    All three of those things are certainly important to me.
     
  16. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Good. So now it is established here that quality is something measurable, and the rest is esthetics.
     
  17. laufer

    laufer Well-Known Member

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    Thelonius,
    do not take this personally but can you please go somewhere else? For example there is a leather quality and properties thread.
     
  18. JubeiSpiegel

    JubeiSpiegel Well-Known Member

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    ^
    +1
    DW will entertain all trolling in the Leather Quality thread... :plain:
     
  19. chogall

    chogall Well-Known Member

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    the last two pages are awesome for the G&G thread.
     
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather not, thank you. I hate entertaining trolls...their attention spans are so short and they live under bridges. And just when the dog and porny show is taking a well deserved break, the Thread Police come rolling in.

    --
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    3 people like this.

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