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Dormeuil Amadeus vs. H&S Target 10-11 oz

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by morsem, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. whoopee

    whoopee Well-Known Member

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    FCS, finished my stint in Singapore and travelling through Asia at the moment. Glad to hear you liked that place in Shanghai; hope everything worked out well. I've never seen the 19 oz Lesser - it sounds bulletproof. Should be very useful in the Toronto winters. I'm not sure I could take it myself.

    14-17 oz cloth, morsem, may be wearable past winter, depending on a lot of factors. How your body reacts to heat (I am the same as you in that my body also acclimates in a few days), how weighty the guts of the suit are (I go light on canvas, 1/2 lined, heavy-ish on cloth), how warm your shirts and undershirts are, how porous or insulating the cloth itself is. I find that flannel, for example, wears warmer than a similar weight worsted, especially those in a more open weave (like hopsack vs herringbone).

    As for the definition of worsted flannel, manton wrote the best description, so i quote:

    "Worsted flannel is cloth with a worsted base. That is, in the guts of the cloth, the yarns are combed out straight and woven in a parallel/perpendicular lines, giving the cloth greater density and resilience. Usually, this base is a twill weave. But not all the yarns are combed out flat and straight. Some are left to cross this way and that, and lock into place haphazardly. Plus, the cloth is not finished in the same way as a true worsted. The result is a cloth in which, if you look closely, you can see the twill weave, but the surface also has a visible nap, or fuzziness. True woolen flannel will have no combed yarns at all, and no twill (or any other regular pattern) to the weave. It will look "mottled", especially if the yarns are of varying colors (as they almost always are).

    Worsted flannel will wear better, hold a crease better, resist wrinkles better, and last longer. Woolen flannel is softer and in some respects more interesting cloth. The "depth" and color variation is simply not achievable any other way. It is more of luxury, because it is not so hard-wearing and won't last as long. It is also much more rare. I can't remember the last time I saw a real woolen flannel made RTW. I think it's pretty much a bespoke-only cloth these days."

    As for pricing, this depends on your source. H&S, Dormeuil, and Scabal average out to be more expensive than Lesser, Harrisons, and Smith; and in the latter subgrouping Lesser cloth tends to be a bit pricier. It is worth it in my opinion. Golden Bale pricing is closer to H&S 120s and a bit less than double standard Lesser 80s.

    If you are building your wardrobe, you cannot go wrong with the Lesser basics. They are conservative, long-lived, reasonably priced, and look great. When you feel ready to indulge in some dash, look into H&S and Harrisons (cashmere). Their cloths have more verve and happier colours.
     
  2. FCS

    FCS Well-Known Member

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    Hum, I think I got better prices from H&S retail (Beazley's) than 'comparable' H. Lesser fabrics from their US dealer. This is even after H&S bumped up their prices (might have something to do with the private equity buyouts). Should have bought those cloths a few years ago, can't believe how long I procrastinated.
     
  3. FCS

    FCS Well-Known Member

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    I too agree that 10/11 oz. is fairly light. But isn't 17/18 oz. cloth particularly heavy? I'm in Houston, Tx. and that impacts my feelings, but short of an extremely colder climate town, like Anchorage, Alaska, when would 17/18 oz. fabric be remotely practical. I.E., at least 2 season useage?

    Opinion, Mr Despos if you are there!

    Regards and Thanks!


    Well, flannel is significantly more warmer and I do think it looks a bit weird to wear it in the summer. But I could still pull off that weight in normal worsted for at least a three-season use. Have to go light on the canvas though, which is my preference anyways.

    And I also have this Northern winter here so I have more chance to wear them .
     
  4. whoopee

    whoopee Well-Known Member

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    Prices from the UK - and directly from the source - are generally less than those found in the US, sold by distributors. Duties and the added overhead being the main culprits.
     
  5. Roger

    Roger Well-Known Member

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    A couple of observations on the above discussion. First, I have to agree with rnoldh in wondering why 14-17 oz. fabrics are being suggested for wear in what is basically a Southern US city. In Vancouver, which would be a little cooler than DC (although never really cold, like Toronto), no one wears anything heavier than 11/12 oz. for fall and winter garments. No one. A 17 oz. jacket or suit would just be unbearable. It's certainly true that this heavy stuff is esthetically pleasing and drapes very well, but you have to wear the stuff!

    Despos, no, I wasn't proposing comparing worsted flannel with woollen flannel, but, instead, wondering whether we were all on the same page in this discussion, since Lumb's Golden Bale was being mentioned (which as far as I know is a worsted flannel), whereas Morsem had mentioned only "worsted" at the beginning.

    Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

    Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.
     
  6. horton

    horton Well-Known Member

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    It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that Lesser was more expensive
     
  7. whoopee

    whoopee Well-Known Member

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    Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

    Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.


    Yes. There are a lot more worsteds than worsted flannels in Lesser Lumbs Goldne Bale.

    Harrisons worsted and woolen flannels are considerably less than 70/metre if direct fomr LBD Harrisons.
     
  8. Despos

    Despos Well-Known Member

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    A couple of observations on the above discussion. First, I have to agree with rnoldh in wondering why 14-17 oz. fabrics are being suggested for wear in what is basically a Southern US city. In Vancouver, which would be a little cooler than DC (although never really cold, like Toronto), no one wears anything heavier than 11/12 oz. for fall and winter garments. No one. A 17 oz. jacket or suit would just be unbearable. It's certainly true that this heavy stuff is esthetically pleasing and drapes very well, but you have to wear the stuff!

    Despos, no, I wasn't proposing comparing worsted flannel with woollen flannel, but, instead, wondering whether we were all on the same page in this discussion, since Lumb's Golden Bale was being mentioned (which as far as I know is a worsted flannel), whereas Morsem had mentioned only "worsted" at the beginning.

    Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

    Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.


    When I reread your post I understood you are comparing worsteds to worsted flannel.

    I make 13oz flannels for clients in Texas that wear them year round. I actually have a client that only wears 13oz flannel in TX. I concur with previous statements that is up to the wearer. Some could not tolerate the weight in TX heat.

    I am looking at two Lessers books. The "Golden Bale" book says worsted flannels on the cover. Another Lesser book is named "Fine worsted and woollen flannels". They hand is a bit coarse when compare to the Golden Bale. The books have a name but no book #. US prices are substatially higher than you will find in UK.
     
  9. FCS

    FCS Well-Known Member

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    Harrisons worsted and woolen flannels are considerably less than 70/metre if direct fomr LBD Harrisons.

    Whoopee, are you referring to this LBD Harrisons? They do retail orders?
    http://www.lbd-harrisons.com/index2.htm
     
  10. whoopee

    whoopee Well-Known Member

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    Whoopee, are you referring to this LBD Harrisons? They do retail orders?
    http://www.lbd-harrisons.com/index2.htm


    If you ask nicely. Penny DuBois is the export manager and exceedingly helpful.
     
  11. Will

    Will Well-Known Member

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    After listening to Michael Alden on the topic of heavier fabrics, I switched to 13 oz worsted and flannel for fall and winter in the Bay area, and 15 oz. tweed suitings in winter. 22 oz. tweed jackets for that matter, with 13 oz. flannel trousers.

    Compared to 11 oz. cloth, the 13s drape better and crease less. The only suitings I buy under 13 oz. these days are frescos and mohair blends for summer.

    I'm wearing an older A&S from 8 oz. tropical wool today and it's nowhere near as elegant as the suits from heavier cloth.
     
  12. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Well-Known Member

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    After listening to Michael Alden on the topic of heavier fabrics, I switched to 13 oz worsted and flannel for fall and winter in the Bay area, and 15 oz. tweed suitings in winter. 22 oz. tweed jackets for that matter, with 13 oz. flannel trousers.

    Compared to 11 oz. cloth, the 13s drape better and crease less. The only suitings I buy under 13 oz. these days are frescos and mohair blends for summer.

    I'm wearing an older A&S from 8 oz. tropical wool today and it's nowhere near as elegant as the suits from heavier cloth.



    22 oz tweed jackets? Dah-yum.
    I dont think I have anything against the heavier fabrics except an exceptional circulatory system and global warming. I actually own a Porter and harding donegal suit in a 19oz and it really isnt that hot due to porousness of the material. I wouldnt make a meal of it though.

    It is odd that there isnt as much of a difference between 11 and 13 oz as say 9 to 11 oz. Of course weave has a lot to do with comfort. A 7 oz flannel can and will be much hotter on the body than a 13 oz fresco.

    Dugdale actually makes the true Tory 14/15 oz worsted and unfinished worsted stuuff that drapes, wears and performs like Iron but looks handsome all the time. It is also dirt cheap considering its quality. A suit of this will last forever.
     
  13. CommercialDoc

    CommercialDoc Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I just picked out two Dormeuil Amadeus fabrics for my second and third bespoke suits. It seems like there is a preference for H & S and Lesser fabrics on SF but the Dormeuil was quite nice and also being closed out by the tailor and sent back to the distributor if not sold.

    I was wondering what prices people are willing to pay for a suit made in Dormeuil Amadeus? My suit is fully custom and will involve a minimum of three fittings.

    On a side note, do you prefer hand sewn buttonholes or machine sewn?
     
  14. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I just picked out two Dormeuil Amadeus fabrics for my second and third bespoke suits. It seems like there is a preference for H & S and Lesser fabrics on SF but the Dormeuil was quite nice and also being closed out by the tailor and sent back to the distributor if not sold.

    I was wondering what prices people are willing to pay for a suit made in Dormeuil Amadeus? My suit is fully custom and will involve a minimum of three fittings.

    On a side note, do you prefer hand sewn buttonholes or machine sewn?


    The Amadeus book has some of the nicer 100s that I've seen. There were a couple in that book that caught my attention but I eventually went with two Scabal fabrics for my most recent commissions.

    My tailor charged his base price for a jacket made from the Amadeus book, which at the time was $2400, but is now $2650. Suits start at around 3k

    And by all means do not ruin a bespoke suit with machine-sewn buttonholes! Although I can't imagine any tailor worth his salt that would actually do such a thing.

    Lastly, many of the posters here do have a penchant for the firms you've mentionned, but that shouldn't blind you when it comes to fabric selection. H&S has some awful fabrics as well as great ones. Scabal, H&S, Lesser, LP all make good fabrics but no one merchant will have everything you want or need.
     
  15. Roger

    Roger Well-Known Member

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    H&S has some awful fabrics as well as great ones.
    Is that right? Can you tell us which ones they are so we can avoid them?
     
  16. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    Is that right? Can you tell us which ones they are so we can avoid them?

    As you know, H&S is just a fabric merchant. They don't own the mills. While the majority of their fabrics are high quality, once in a while you'll find a dud. There was a book from 2003 or 2004 that my tailor really didn't like. I couldn't tell you specifically which one since H&S has never adopted a particularly logical way of naming their books. Regardless, my tailor threw-out the whole book just so clients wouldn't choose from it. He had made a jacket from it and it started to pill prematurely.

    My only caution is that a fabric should be judged for what it is, not who made it. I always ask my tailor how he likes working with a particular fabric because chances are he's worked with most of the books he carries and can provide valuable feedback on durability and maintenance.

    For what it's worth, my preference in this particular case would be the Amadeus. I really like several of the fabrics in that book and can vouch that they'll tailor and wear well.
     
  17. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Member

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    I guess I am bringing back an old old old thread from the past... did a search on Dormeuil Amadeus fabric. Based on what others have posted, price for a suit with this fabric would be around $2.5K to $3? Or is there a range? Is Amadeus a series? with Super 100, 120, 150, 180 and so on?

    A colleague brought me to a local tailor with some amazing house special. Amoung them is the Dormeuil Amadeus Super 120. My colleague had already ordered one suit in that fabric. I was planning to get a nice Canali suit with my bonus but he is really convincing in talking me into trying a custom made suit at least once. For the price... I could almost get two for the price of a regular price Canali suit. Some of the house cloth include Zegna fabric but cost more than the Dormeuil. The touch and feel of the Dormeuil Amadeus feels fabulous.

    My main question, is $1,299 a good deal for a custom made suit with the Dormeuil Amadeus Super 120 fabric?
     
  18. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Well-Known Member

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    My main question, is $1,299 a good deal for a custom made suit with the Dormeuil Amadeus Super 120 fabric?

    Amadeus is pretty average stuff imo. More importantly for you, the guy you're thinking of using doesn't sound like a real bespoke tailor.
     
  19. dragon8

    dragon8 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I am bringing back an old old old thread from the past... did a search on Dormeuil Amadeus fabric. Based on what others have posted, price for a suit with this fabric would be around $2.5K to $3? Or is there a range? Is Amadeus a series? with Super 100, 120, 150, 180 and so on?

    A colleague brought me to a local tailor with some amazing house special. Amoung them is the Dormeuil Amadeus Super 120. My colleague had already ordered one suit in that fabric. I was planning to get a nice Canali suit with my bonus but he is really convincing in talking me into trying a custom made suit at least once. For the price... I could almost get two for the price of a regular price Canali suit. Some of the house cloth include Zegna fabric but cost more than the Dormeuil. The touch and feel of the Dormeuil Amadeus feels fabulous.

    My main question, is $1,299 a good deal for a custom made suit with the Dormeuil Amadeus Super 120 fabric?


    Amadeus is pretty average stuff imo. More importantly for you, the guy you're thinking of using doesn't sound like a real bespoke tailor.

    Who is your tailor?
     
  20. TorontoEX

    TorontoEX Active Member

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    Where are you located?
     

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