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Dispute CC Charge?

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by Joffrey, Dec 20, 2006.

  1. VKK3450

    VKK3450 Well-Known Member

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    During the holidays, you should leave extra tips, and a spiritual quotation on the bill.

    I agree. A kind word goes nicely with the holiday season

    K
     
  2. Jared

    Jared Well-Known Member

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    I'm willing to admit that depending on how I feel, I'll occasionally let an err in my favour go unnoticed. But if I end up getting burned for my greed, I should chalk it up to karma instead of calling foul. Besides, any waitpeople on here will tell you: $10 isn't that awesome of a tip on a $50 bill.
     
  3. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Well-Known Member

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    I'm willing to admit that depending on how I feel, I'll occasionally let an err in my favour go unnoticed. But if I end up getting burned for my greed, I should chalk it up to karma instead of calling foul. Besides, any waitpeople on here will tell you: $10 isn't that awesome of a tip on a $50 bill.

    A $50 bar bill isn't the same as a $50 food bill. The server is taking your order, putting 4-5 drinks on a tray, and carrying it back, for $10. I don't think that's too bad, do you?
     
  4. aybojs

    aybojs Well-Known Member

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    A $50 bar bill isn't the same as a $50 food bill. The server is taking your order, putting 4-5 drinks on a tray, and carrying it back, for $10. I don't think that's too bad, do you?
    It depends. If you're ordering from a cocktail waitress, you should definitely follow the same standards as if you were ordering food, because waitresses will have to tip out the same on drink sales (or even more, if it's a place where an additional cut is given to the bartenders on alcohol sales) as on food sales. You'd actually be surprised how tricky carrying a tray full of delicate, liquid-filled glasses can be for a waitress having to squeeze her way through through a large standing and moving crowd; it's a different dynamic than carrying a tray of food through a clear pathway of tables to some seated diners. Bartenders have it a little easier in that they typically don't have to tip out a percentage of sales and have their own space to move around and drop off drinks in, but they're still expected to crank out drinks at a high rate and juggle a large number of server orders, customer orders, tab records, etc. Beyond that, tipping a bartender admitedly also has its bribe-like aspects: being known as a good tipper tends to result in getting faster attention to drink needs, more attention to the preparation of individual drink orders, and in less well-ordered places the occasional free drink, or extra-strong drink. I don't do the latter at work, nor do I go out of my way to provide shitty service to bad tippers, but any bartender is conscious of the fact that it is more efficient and beneficial for them to place a priority on serving people who tip well over people who don't, and that can come into a play on a busy night when you see the high-spending regulars being offered new drinks the second their current ones look low while the curmudgeon in the corner has to struggle to get his order taken. Anyway, it seems to me that Jared's point was not that $10 on a $50 tab constitutes a bad tip: any server would be delighted to get a 20% tip. However, his observation was that there is a huge disconnect between the OP's apparent attitude that his 20% tip was an exceptional favor only done because he got $50 worth of free drinks (thereby implying that he probably would have left a much lower tip, perhaps to the point of being way out-of-touch with conventional etiquette low, had he been presented with the proper total on the check), when in reality even a mediocre server/bartender at a bar will see more than a handful of 20%+ tips on an average day at work and not consider 20% an unusually large amount, let alone something that will cause his jaw to drop in awe. To reiterate, Jared is saying that while 20% is a damn fine tip, it's not too far off from the average and certainly isn't unheard of; the implication being that the OP's impression that his 20% was an enormous gift (his shifty behavior in the thread notwithstanding) suggests that he is probably a poor tipper on average.
     
  5. Joffrey

    Joffrey Well-Known Member

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    a $9 tip on a $0.41 bill is really good. Where is this 20% coming from?
     
  6. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Well-Known Member

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    a $9 tip on a $0.41 bill is really good. Where is this 20% coming from?

    I imagine they are using the $40 as approximately what you should have paid given what you ordered.

    As far as that goes, what do you guys think about tipping when you use a coupon? Let's say your bill was $40 but you have a coupon to make it $20. Do you leave a $6 tip, or $3?
     
  7. vaclava krishna

    vaclava krishna Well-Known Member

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    I

    As far as that goes, what do you guys think about tipping when you use a coupon? Let's say your bill was $40 but you have a coupon to make it $20. Do you leave a $6 tip, or $3?


    I never left a tip at the bodega.
     
  8. Joffrey

    Joffrey Well-Known Member

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    I'd say tip on the original charge. So tip based on $40.
     
  9. grimslade

    grimslade Well-Known Member

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    I imagine they are using the $40 as approximately what you should have paid given what you ordered.

    As far as that goes, what do you guys think about tipping when you use a coupon? Let's say your bill was $40 but you have a coupon to make it $20. Do you leave a $6 tip, or $3?


    You tip $6. The waitress gets no benefit from the coupon. She shouldn't be penalized for it either.

    As to some of the other questions, in a bar in, say, NYC, if you're running a tab, you hand the bartender your credit card with the first round. When you're done, you make that little signing-in-the-air motion and he runs your card. You don't expect him to present you with a bill for your examination, because that just slows everything down. So the way the OP was presented with the bill is not unusual in a bar (as opposed to a restaurant).

    My personal view is that disputing the charge is karmically bad. You lost your free drinks, but that was "found" money anyway. Easy come, easy go. I would've let it go. If the bar wants to press it and has the itemized tab, they could prove that you owed the 49.15 or so, meaning you could lose the dispute. But it may not be worth their while.
     
  10. aybojs

    aybojs Well-Known Member

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    a $9 tip on a $0.41 bill is really good. Where is this 20% coming from?
    You ordered $40-50 worth of drinks and clearly were well aware of what their expected cost was. This is a little more of a gray area than the firm percentage rule, but, when getting a discounted tab, it is also considered good form to take into account the amount of service received and base your tip off the standard cost of the goods ordered. In other words, if you're using a waiter or bartender, but have the bill substantially reduced or whittled down to nothing by virtue of comps (the obvious exception would be if the comp was a manager's response to an unsatisfactory experience), gift certificates, or the use of promotional items, that doesn't make it ok to stiff the server just because your bill was zero or a negligible dollar amount. You still fill space that could otherwise be used for standard customers who would tip according to social norms, you still require the efforts of the server to bring you your drinks (and prepare them, since you ordered from the bar), and you still require time and energy from the server that, again, could otherwise be used to wait on other income-providing customers. One common standard I've often seen used for bar tipping (and that comes close to what I average during my shifts) is that $1/drink is a not unreasonable amount to tip for a bartender who does a proper job of preparing the drinks and bringing them over in a timely manner. You ordered 8 drinks from the bar, and many people would argue that it would be rude of you to tip much lower than $8 regardless of how much the tab was presented to you as. From that perspective, your $9 tip was only a little bit above the norm, enough to make any bartender perfectly happy, but by no means enough to act like you were doing the bar an exceptional favor and going way above and beyond. Edited to include a brief response to:
    I imagine they are using the $40 as approximately what you should have paid given what you ordered. As far as that goes, what do you guys think about tipping when you use a coupon? Let's say your bill was $40 but you have a coupon to make it $20. Do you leave a $6 tip, or $3?
    See my post above. Some places treat comps/coupons as a part of the sales total that gets counted into the required tipout, most don't, I believe. Again, it's going to vary, but some places will also count them towards the sales total that is used to calculate taxable tip income for reports to the IRS. Regardless of how the establishment's figures may work, you're still taking up space that could be used for other customers, recieving service from the server, and taking up a share of the limited time that the server has to expend on customers for the purpose of income. Reducing your tip because of a coupon is arbitrarily slashing a proportionate amount of a server's income and penalizing them for something beyond his control, despite the fact that you required the same service that would be bestowed onto a full price diner.
     
  11. vaclava krishna

    vaclava krishna Well-Known Member

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    My personal view is that disputing the charge is karmically bad. You lost your free drinks, but that was "found" money anyway. Easy come, easy go. I would've let it go. If the bar wants to press it and has the itemized tab, they could prove that you owed the 49.15 or so, meaning you could lose the dispute. But it may not be worth their while.


    Hello Grim,

    if I find Mr Grey Eyebrows, can I arrange you to join us, at the beergarden?
     
  12. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Well-Known Member

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    You ordered $40-50 worth of drinks and clearly were well aware of what their expected cost was. This is a little more of a gray area than the firm percentage rule, but, when getting a discounted tab, it is also considered good form to take into account the amount of service received and base your tip off the standard cost of the goods ordered. In other words, if you're using a waiter or bartender, but have the bill substantially reduced or whittled down to nothing by virtue of comps (the obvious exception would be if the comp was a manager's response to an unsatisfactory experience), gift certificates, or the use of promotional items, that doesn't make it ok to stiff the server just because your bill was zero or a negligible dollar amount. You still fill space that could otherwise be used for standard customers who would tip according to social norms, you still require the efforts of the server to bring you your drinks (and prepare them, since you ordered from the bar), and you still require time and energy from the server that, again, could otherwise be used to wait on other income-providing customers.

    One common standard I've often seen used for bar tipping (and that comes close to what I average during my shifts) is that $1/drink is a not unreasonable amount to tip for a bartender who does a proper job of preparing the drinks and bringing them over in a timely manner. You ordered 8 drinks from the bar, and many people would argue that it would be rude of you to tip much lower than $8 regardless of how much the tab was presented to you as. From that perspective, your $9 tip was only a little bit above the norm, enough to make any bartender perfectly happy, but by no means enough to act like you were doing the bar an exceptional favor and going way above and beyond.

    Edited to include a brief response to:



    See my post above. Some places treat comps/coupons as a part of the sales total that gets counted into the required tipout, most don't, I believe. Again, it's going to vary, but some places will also count them towards the sales total that is used to calculate taxable tip income for reports to the IRS. Regardless of how the establishment's figures may work, you're still taking up space that could be used for other customers, recieving service from the server, and taking up a share of the limited time that the server has to expend on customers for the purpose of income. Reducing your tip because of a coupon is arbitrarily slashing a proportionate amount of a server's income and penalizing them for something beyond his control, despite the fact that you required the same service that would be bestowed onto a full price diner.


    I would probably agree with that, as long as you get the same level of service that they would give a full price diner.
     
  13. sho'nuff

    sho'nuff Well-Known Member

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    LOL.
    i m sorry fellas but has not this discussion been overdrawn out by now?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. grimslade

    grimslade Well-Known Member

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    Hello Grim,

    if I find Mr Grey Eyebrows, can I arrange you to join us, at the beergarden?



    Vaclav,

    of course. just let me know.
     
  15. Earthmover

    Earthmover Well-Known Member

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    This logic flabbergasts me. If you get $40 free drinks, I believe that some of it should be kicked back to the person who made those drinks free for you. Depending on situations, you should kick in anywhere from 25% to 75% of what you get "free" back to the person who served you. Isn't that just a nice thing to do? And aside from that, it also leaves the door open for future gratis drinks.

    Similarly, what I would do with a coupon (although I rarely use restaurant coupons) is actually "split" the discount with the server, kicking in a bigger tip to the server while I take some of the cost savings as well. It's a win/win.
     
  16. Joffrey

    Joffrey Well-Known Member

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    LOL.
    i m sorry fellas but has not this discussion been overdrawn out by now?

    [​IMG]



    Ha thank you! It's funny that I started this thread and I'm probably the one who thinks it's become the most ridiculous
     
  17. VKK3450

    VKK3450 Well-Known Member

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    Ha thank you! It's funny that I started this thread and I'm probably the one who thinks it's become the most ridiculous

    That's probably because it is your actions that are being criticized

    An antagonistic comment, I know.

    K
     
  18. Alter

    Alter Well-Known Member

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    Ha thank you! It's funny that I started this thread and I'm probably the one who thinks it's become the most ridiculous
    Just wondering what happened with this. Also, I need to fess up to some hypocrisy. I gave Jodum5 a hard time because I thought he should have brought the billing error to the bartender's attention. Last week I bought a new digital camera. The price was quoted by the salesman at 38,000 yen; the cashier punched it in a 30,800 yen (that's the equivilant of say...$380 and $308). I didn't say a word.[​IMG]
     
  19. EL72

    EL72 Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering what happened with this.

    Also, I need to fess up to some hypocrisy. I gave Jodum5 a hard time because I thought he should have brought the billing error to the bartender's attention. Last week I bought a new digital camera. The price was quoted by the salesman at 38,000 yen; the cashier punched it in a 30,800 yen (that's the equivilant of say...$380 and $308).

    I didn't say a word.[​IMG]


    Your criticism of Jodum would be hypocritical if you received a credit card bill for the true amount of 38K yen and proceeded to dispute the charge with Visa on the basis of the cashier's error.
     
  20. oldseed

    oldseed Well-Known Member

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    Your criticism of Jodum would be hypocritical if you received a credit card bill for the true amount of 38K yen and proceeded to dispute the charge with Visa on the basis of the cashier's error.

    semantics. his hypocrisy is in acting immorally while chiming the moral bell.

    seed
     

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