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designing home A/V set up, more about music than home theater

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by pg600rr, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    I don't the dispersion pattern limits the listening experience. I tested this by sitting in different area in the CEDIA demo room. I don't think its a big deal anymore. They also have fixed the panel-woofer integration.

    You need to listen more carefully. It is very easy to tell an ML apart from a wider dispersion speaker in a side-by-side test, and the ML does worse because its frequency response sounds lumpy. And in case you were wondering, this was a double-blind test.

    The physical configuration of an ML also automatically affects its dispersion. The panel that outputs the higher frequencies is much larger than the wavelengths of the frequencies it outputs. This makes it directional, and in fact quite ragged since there are all sorts of other resonances that happen on the panel. You can easily see this in the measurements that magazines like Stereophile publish.

    That is a ridiculous statement. There is no such thing as a massless transducer, because your speaker would explode when you apply any kind of force to it. And if it doesn't (MLs haven't been blowing up), then it would have infinite frequency response. As measured by many reviewers, ML's frequency response is decidedly very finite and limited. And if this wasn't bad enough, a massless transducer cannot make a sound unless you drive it with infinite energy, which is another route to the explodey problem.

    It is also a misconception that a massless transducer is ideal. That is not true at all. What you want is for the mass, spring, and damper system formed by the driver to match the medium (air in most cases) it's trying to drive. This is because you are then matching the output impedance of the speaker to the impedance of air. This is why horns are so loud and efficient: their impedance match to air is better than just a cone by itself. Klipsch wrote about this in the 50s. Get with the program.

    What they don't say is that the focus changes with frequency. Some frequencies are more beamy than others, so you get lumpy frequency response which in turn causes the character of the speaker to change drastically with rooms and listening material, and not in good ways. And since a speaker's perceived sound is in large part determined by the room, and the room's effects reflect a speaker's dispersion pattern, MLs don't do great in real rooms.

    We won't even go into the incompetent way they've integrated a woofer with their panels.

    --Andre
     
  2. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    I pulled the trigger on the Def Tech.'s as today was the final day I could get the 20% off on them... thankfully I can try them in home for 30 days and return if I want with NO restocking fees or anything, which is pretty sweet.

    I am anxious to see how they work in my room, I attached a pic showing it, as you can see clearly not the best room for sound but it is what it is...
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    I pulled the trigger on the Def Tech.'s as today was the final day I could get the 20% off on them... thankfully I can try them in home for 30 days and return if I want with NO restocking fees or anything, which is pretty sweet.

    I am anxious to see how they work in my room, I attached a pic showing it, as you can see clearly not the best room for sound but it is what it is...


    I don't know I should give you any more advice since your mind was made up on the DefTechs, but if you really want the best possible sound then buy this book:

    http://www.getbettersound.com/
     
  4. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    I don't know I should give you any more advice since your mind was made up on the DefTechs, but if you really want the best possible sound then buy this book:

    http://www.getbettersound.com/


    thanks, more advice is def. welcome, as mentioned I pretty much get a free 30 day in home audition with the def. techs so in that time I am planning on continuing to listen to other speakers and doing more research.
     
  5. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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  6. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    just ran in to a potential problem... I totally forgot about my cat, of course I never got it declawed, and every now and then it decides to use various household items as a post, even though I bought a scratch post for it.

    I am worried about it using the floor speakers/grills as scratch posts, especially with the DEF Tech design (i.e., the full surround sock speaker cover).

    Do you think this is a warranted concern? I was actually contemplating cancelling my order in going with some wall mounted speakers like the mythos or some bookshelf style that can be up on stands like the PSB Imagine-B....
     
  7. Douglas

    Douglas Well-Known Member

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    Do you think this is a warranted concern?

    Not if you kill the cat.
     
  8. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    Not if you kill the cat.

    I would like to, but unfortunatley not an option...

    I was thinking tho, right after i posted, if I were to go with a floor speaker option that looks good with the grill removed, i.e., the PSB Imagine T or B&W 600 series, I could just leave the grill off correct? That is only really on there to protect the speakers from wandering hands and other objects?

    Of course this rules out the Def Tech Bi-polars as I am not sure if you can remove the sock surround, or even if they look decent with it removed.

    Some others I came across:
    Paradigm studio 60's
    MA RX6's
    Revel F12
     
  9. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what to do with the cat, but some speakers are designed to be listened to with the grills on (some Paradigms I believe), so if you're going to use a speaker grillless, make sure it's designed to be done that way. Most are. A lot of non-audio people (ie. wives and girlfriends) don't like speakers without grills because it looks too techy.

    --Andre
     
  10. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    Not if you kill the cat.

    Douglas,

    You seemed in the past like a nice guy but today you are going on about killing your grandmother and now this cat. I'm concerned.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    just ran in to a potential problem... I totally forgot about my cat, of course I never got it declawed, and every now and then it decides to use various household items as a post, even though I bought a scratch post for it.

    I am worried about it using the floor speakers/grills as scratch posts, especially with the DEF Tech design (i.e., the full surround sock speaker cover).

    Do you think this is a warranted concern? I was actually contemplating cancelling my order in going with some wall mounted speakers like the mythos or some bookshelf style that can be up on stands like the PSB Imagine-B....


    You could try mini-monitors on a stand but you will lose some bass. I really like the Usher Audio Tiny Dancers. The Paradigm Signatures are also good. Zu Audio makes some bookshelf speakers that may fit the bill.
     
  12. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    update: I tried out the def techs and they just sounded as though they really lacked detail... very bassy, but not really tight, more boomy. THey sounded pretty good watching movies, but with music they kind of reminded me of the car audio system I had in my mitsu eclipse in highschool, consisting of 2 12" subs and stock speakers in the front.... alas I returned them.

    I have really narrowed down the search,
    B&W, Maggies, and ML's are all out, they are all far too bright for my particular room, which is an all hardwood living room, with 9ft.+ ceilings.. plus they all tend to have poor dispersion.

    I have really enjoyed the Paradigm Studio 60v.5's and the PSB Imagine T's... I am having a hard time deciding between these two but I think it will be one of these. The PSB's are a bit warmer, but the Paradigm a little more crisp (not really notcieably though).

    Still have yet to listen to the MA RX-6's but looks wise they are ugly imo... (which is actually imorptant to me(. Both the Para and PSB have the curved encasements, real wood veneers, and look great with the grills off.

    Anyothers I should try out before making a decision? for the fronts I am looking to stay below or around $2k for the two.
     
  13. jenlain

    jenlain Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you add NHT and Vandersteen to your list of potential speakers.

    How are you adding zones 2 and 3? If you are not set on hardwiring from your receiver, consider looking at a wireless network via sonos or apple airport express. Can save you a huge amount on labor and gives you flexibility in the future. Keep us updated.

    Ciao.
     
  14. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you add NHT and Vandersteen to your list of potential speakers.

    How are you adding zones 2 and 3? If you are not set on hardwiring from your receiver, consider looking at a wireless network via sonos or apple airport express. Can save you a huge amount on labor and gives you flexibility in the future. Keep us updated.

    Ciao.


    I will check those out,

    as for the other zones, I was planning on using Sonos. For now I am just doing the main zone in the LR and a zone on my back deck/outside area, gonna use a zp90 on the LR main area and a zp120 to power the deck speakers/zone.

    Someone else on this thread mentioned the airport express option but I really havent looked into it since I have heard such great things about Sonos.
     
  15. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    I have really enjoyed the Paradigm Studio 60v.5's and the PSB Imagine T's... I am having a hard time deciding between these two but I think it will be one of these. The PSB's are a bit warmer, but the Paradigm a little more crisp (not really notcieably though).
    I think you are making a big mistake by passing on the Maggie 1.7s but between these two options I would lean to the PSB Imagine series. Either way, both are great speakers.
     
  16. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    If you like paradigm, look at the Sigs for a bit more money.
     
  17. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    If you like paradigm, look at the Sigs for a bit more money.

    They look great but the S6's are about $4600-$5000 for the pair which is far, far out my price range.
     
  18. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    They look great but the S6's are about $4600-$5000 for the pair which is far, far out my price range.
    You don't have to buy new. Look on audiogon. Audiophiles baby their equipment so you're almost always getting near-mint equipment off that site. You may just find paradigms for half their retail price. Also, how big is the space you're putting them in? You may be able to get away with S4s if you can't afford the S6; they're about half the price. They're bookshelves but they still pack a big punch and go pretty low on bass.
     
  19. pg600rr

    pg600rr Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to buy new. Look on audiogon. Audiophiles baby their equipment so you're almost always getting near-mint equipment off that site. You may just find paradigms for half their retail price.

    Also, how big is the space you're putting them in? You may be able to get away with S4s if you can't afford the S6; they're about half the price. They're bookshelves but they still pack a big punch and go pretty low on bass.


    Ture, didnt even think about going the used route. The room is about 18 x 18, approx. 9 1/2 ft. ceilings... Speaking of the S4's, would you think that the studio 60's may be a better speaker than the S4?
     
  20. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    Ture, didnt even think about going the used route. The room is about 18 x 18, approx. 9 1/2 ft. ceilings... Speaking of the S4's, would you think that the studio 60's may be a better speaker than the S4?
    No. Not a chance. The Sigs are better in just about every way, but the biggest difference is the Be tweeter. The studio 60 will push a bit more air, which can help with bass, but that's about it imo. You'd be surprised at how much sound the S4 can actually put out and the bass is very well controlled. I wouldn't let its smaller size deter you. I would get the S4s and a good sub. And get the sub later if you can't afford it now. Don't get a cheap one just to have it. Since your main focus is music, go with the S4 within paradigm's offerings; it's really a no-brainer.
     

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