Curt Schilling: HOFer?

[Tokyo Slim]

[NSFW]HOF
[/NSFW]

 

[breakz]

^^^

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by breakz

^^^

Someday you'll learn never to click on a NSFW link I post.

...those poor defenseless dogs...

 

[CDFS]

Could a kind sports enthousiast explain the following scores to this baseball n00b?: 2.23 ERA (2.06 in WS). How is this measured. I think 300 or 3.00 is the max?

Thx.

 

[robertorex]

Originally Posted by CDFS

Could a kind sports enthousiast explain the following scores to this baseball n00b?: 2.23 ERA (2.06 in WS). How is this measured. I think 300 or 3.00 is the max?

Thx.

There's a long and technical explanation here, but the lower the better. If it's below 3.00 you're very good, since most middling pitchers will be around 4.00 or somewhere.

 

[robertorex]

If he isn't the single greatest, then he's one of the greatest postseason pitchers ever. You can't leave that kind of player out.

 

[Baron]

He did have a better post-season record than Smoltz, but it's pretty close. Smoltz had a lot more post season innings.

Then there's Bob Gibson.
Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+
1964 WS STL NYY W 3 3 3.00 2 1 0 2 27 23 9 8 31
1967 WS STL BOS W 3 3 1.00 3 0 0 3 27 14 3 5 26
1968 WS STL DET L 3 3 1.67 2 1 0 3 27 18 5 4 35
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+
3 World Series 2-1 9 9 1.89 7 2 0 8 81 55 17 17 92
+--------------------+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+

Holy ****! 9 starts in the world series, 8 complete games, ERA of 1.89, 92 K's in 81 innings!

And Sandy Koufax:

Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+
1959 WS LAD CHW W 2 1 1.00 0 1 0 0 9 5 1 1 7
1963 WS LAD NYY W 2 2 1.50 2 0 0 2 18 12 3 3 23
1965 WS LAD MIN W 3 3 0.38 2 1 0 2 24 13 1 5 29
1966 WS LAD BAL L 1 1 1.50 0 1 0 0 6 6 1 2 2
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+
4 World Series 3-1 8 7 0.95 4 3 0 4 57 36 6 11 61
+--------------------+-----+---+---+------+--+--+--+--+-----+---+---+---+---+
ERA of 0.95! In game 7 of the '65 series he threw a complete game 3 hitter on 2 days rest against a power hitting Twins team throwing only fastballs.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by CDFS

Could a kind sports enthousiast explain the following scores to this baseball n00b?: 2.23 ERA (2.06 in WS). How is this measured. I think 300 or 3.00 is the max? Thx.
Its actually pretty easy. ERA is the average number of runs given up by a pitcher per nine innings over the course of a given period of time. (usually a season, career, or whatever.) (Earned Runs/Innings Pitched) x 9 There is no max, except that usually if you give up too many runs per nine innings over the course of your career, you are probably not a pro baseball player to begin with, or you won't be one shortly.

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by Slopho

...If you base getting into the HOF because of the sock, Bob Gibson pitched with a broken leg.

Originally Posted by Baron

He did have a better post-season record than Smoltz, but it's pretty close. Smoltz had a lot more post season innings.

Then there's Bob Gibson.

And Sandy Koufax:

ERA of 0.95! In game 7 of the '65 series he threw a complete game 3 hitter on 2 days rest against a power hitting Twins team throwing only fastballs.

Bob F-ing Gibson was an animal. Like Chuck Norris.

And I saw Koufax pitch in that '65 Series. F-ing smooth.
And the dude skipped a start 'cause he wouldn't pitch on Yom Kippur.

 

[Slopho]

Originally Posted by Slopho

Schilling didn't even have a signature pitch. Rivera has a great cutter, Johnson an incredible slider, even Mussina has a knuckle-curve. If you base getting into the HOF because of the sock, Bob Gibson pitched with a broken leg.

Originally Posted by Brian278

Basing HOF qualifications on whether or not they have a signature pitch is beyond dumb. What was Greg Maddux's signature pitch, again? Whatever your answer, Curt Schilling's splitter was at least as much a signature.


Yeah, it is. But I never based his HOF qualifications on that. All I said was he didn't have a signature pitch. I'm looking at 216 total wins. My quesetion all along has been if he gets in with 216 and about 20 years of service should Andy Petitie get in with 215 years and about 15 years of service, and comparable numbers? While I think having something that would make him stand out would help (i.e. Pedro Martinez's Circle Change or Musssina's Knuckle-Curve). Glavine and Maddux don't need to stand out because they have 300 wins.

A signature pitch that is memorable. That made you think, there are 2 strikes and this guy is about to throw something that going to make this batter look silly. I think he needs something that show although he has so few wins, he was dominate for 10-12 years because of that pitch.

Ask yourself this question. Was Curt Schilling ever the ace on a team that did something?

His best season as a Phillie he had 17 wins and a sub 3.00 ERA and his team finished dead last...behind the Expos. Even his numbers as the 01 co pitcher of the year can't really compare with the ace on that staff which was Randy Johnson. Schilling has 1 more win, but nearly 100 fewer K's and a higher ERA (all with less that 10 more innings pitched).

His World Series wins with the Red Sox were more Martinez's and Beckett's teams than Schilling. He was a good career second fiddle though.

 

[whacked]

^ LOL@ people who got most of their baseball knowledge from video games.

Your whole argument lies entirely on the assumption that win is the be all and end all statistic. Well, it isn't, especially in this day and age where Moneyball sabermetrics, which succesfully come up with far more accurate ways to measure a pitcher's performance, has incorporated itself into the canon of baseball knowledge.


Double LOL @ the Schilling-is-never-an-ace talk. Take a long look at these years and tell me if he was or wasn't:
GS W L IP K ERA WHIP BAA
1997 PHI 35 17 11 254.1 319 2.97 1.05 .224
1998 PHI 35 15 14 268.2 300 3.25 1.11 .236 (15 complete games!)


2001 ARI 35 22 6 256.2 293 2.98 1.08 .245
2002 ARI 35 23 7 259.1 316 3.23 0.97 .224

2004 BOS 32 21 6 226.2 203 3.26 1.06 .239

 

[zalb916]

Originally Posted by needler

In retrospect I think the "****" thing actually is part of it. After the whole bloody sock affair and subsequent canonization, then the stupid blog posts and campaigning for W, as I'm not a sox fan most of the time I heard about him it was in connection to some stupid media issue rather than as a great pitcher. So I suppose I underrate him, but I still feel his regular season body of work is underwhelming. I'm sure he'll get in after a few years if only because the electors will want to reward someone for "doing it the right way" in the roids era.

Although I often find him annoying, Schilling's persona will ultimately benefit him getting into the Hall. Whether you perceive it or not, many baseball fans perceive the bloody sock incident as one of the most historic moments in baseball. That combined with his outspokenness helped create an aura around Schilling that probably elevates him a little higher than how he should be regarded. Like him or hate him, he's just a memorable player. The bloody sock, the playoff dominance, the loudmouth, etc. We'll always remember Schilling. For as good as pitchers like Jack Morris or Blyleven were, they're forgettable. Well, I'll never forget Morris in '91, but I'm a Braves fan. Nonetheless, his persona maybe shouldn't count towards his Hall credentials, but I ultimately think it will put him over the top.

Originally Posted by countdemoney

Glavine may get in, but I really don't consider him a HOF pitcher. He never had the dominant stuff - never had the ability to take over a postseason game. This repeatedly showed in the playoffs. To me, the dominant pitcher of his era was Hershiser until injury.

I already declared I'm a Braves fan, so I'm biased, but the whole point of Glavine was that he was a dominating type of pitcher. As for his postseason performances, in 17 NLCS starts, he has a 3.31 ERA. In 8 World Series starts, he has a 2.47 ERA. The win-loss record may not be stellar, like Smoltz's, but that's pretty damn good pitching. His ERA in the NLCS and World Series combined is 2.99 in over 160 innings, which is roughly 80% of a full-season. That's not good enough?

 

[thekunk07]

koufax loves teh cock.

 

[interlockingny]

I say no.

Jack Morris isn't in and I think he is more HOF-worthy. No one will question he was the best pitcher during the 1980s. Here is how his career record compares to Schilling's:

Jack Morris: 254-186 3.90 ERA (3 20 win seasons)
Curt Schilling 216-146 3.46 ERA (3 20 win seasons)

My point here is that their careers are comparable and until Jack Morris is deemed HOF-worthy, I have a hard time giving the nod to Schilling.

 

[zalb916]

Originally Posted by interlockingny

I say no.

Jack Morris isn't in and I think he is more HOF-worthy. No one will question he was the best pitcher during the 1980s. Here is how his career record compares to Schilling's:

Jack Morris: 254-186 3.90 ERA (3 20 win seasons)
Curt Schilling 216-146 3.46 ERA (3 20 win seasons)

My point here is that their careers are comparable and until Jack Morris is deemed HOF-worthy, I have a hard time giving the nod to Schilling.

Completely unfair comparison. Again, way overemphasizing win totals.

Morris has a worse winning percentage and an ERA of almost 0.5 higher. Not to mention, Schilling pitched many more years in a much better hitting era. This stat is telling: Morris' ERA was 0.18 better than the league average for his career. Schilling's ERA was 0.95. Huge difference. Morris was a very good pitcher during his era. Schilling was a great pitcher during his.

Schilling has almost 700 more Ks despite pitching 600 less innings. Schilling has a WHIP of 1.137. Morris has a WHIP of 1.296.

Schilling also has the best strikeout-to-walk ratio (4.38) in the history of baseball. Yes, of all-time. Morris' ratio? 1.78.

Morris was a memorable post-season pitcher. Schilling is one of the top ever. Morris is a very good pitcher. Maybe Hall worthy. Schilling is clearly better.