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Business meeting pick-ups

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by why, Feb 6, 2009.

  1. LabelKing

    LabelKing Well-Known Member

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    +1. The fag drag.

    Ed, if I'm in NYC next weekend (Good chance I will be), we should go out on a date.


    Is that where you suck some butts?
     
  2. RJman

    RJman Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, but I'll be playing the role of the man on the date.
    LOL!
    That means you're paying. Don't forget to bring ear plugs.

    This is good stuff.
     
  3. philosophe

    philosophe Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of this. I think I was (as usual) not being clear as I wrote, but this is more or less what I was trying to get at. The elimination of an inherently dualistic framework or definition is, I think, where we need to go/are going. It is in this way that the "desirable" gay way of life will find an authentic meaning. It won't just be a part of a binary (gay/straight) that will always leave it at a disadvantage.

    This is what I was trying to get at in my previous post about falling in love with people, not categories. I think we all know people we think of as gay or straight who periodically or even rather suddenly switch teams.

    As I understand the research, sexual identity is more fluid for most women than for most men. I have, though, known more than a few "straight" men I'd describe as somewhat bisexual. Why must desire obey some binary opposition?
     
  4. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    So I would agree with your earlier point, why, about the undermining effect of things like pride rallies and hedonism for general acceptance. But insofar as some gays are conducting themselves like women, the interesting questions to me are: why do some gays associate with femininity? What does this tell us about the relationships between men and women? Do we need to address female inequality first? Etc. etc.
    I think the effeminacy just comes with the territory. Not all homosexuals are effeminate though. I know a lot who are the SR-71s to gaydar. [​IMG] Your point about areas being seen as 'gay' and therefore off-limits to heterosexuals is a good one that I take for granted. I think the root cause, really, is the defined boundary that's often set by gays as a reaction to heterosexual ostracism. In re history: I still think it doesn't apply. At least not as far back as Greece and Rome pre-Constantine.
     
  5. philosophe

    philosophe Well-Known Member

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    You honestly have me all wrong and you don't understand that the gay subculture is much different from the mainstream beyond the obvious difference in sexuality. Those other elements (hedonism, rampant drug usage, calling each other 'girlfriend', fag hags, etc.) are what keep me away from it. I'm not a 'self-hating ghey' and I'm completely confident in my sexuality and myself. I just don't like certain aspects the almost-forced gay subculture and I have no reason or intention for shoehorning myself into it or any other subculture that garners the same feelings.

    I can't make it any more clear that I'm not the subject. My intention for this thread was to discuss the dichotomy sometimes felt between emotional and physical attraction and individual standards for affection.


    I've been in the gay community for years, and I see the subculture you describe as just one part of gay life these days. Lots of us are leading lives that bear no resemblance whatsoever to your description. So, frankly, I'm puzzled. Surely you know that what you describe is only a subculture.

    Your second subject, the split between emotional and physical attraction, is an important and fascinating issue. As I said above, I think it could be quite painful to be living out that split for a long time.
     
  6. thekunk07

    thekunk07 Well-Known Member

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    jesus christ, tell me if you're coming before i book for dc.

    +1. The fag drag.

    Ed, if I'm in NYC next weekend (Good chance I will be), we should go out on a date.
     
  7. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    I've been in the gay community for years, and I see the subculture you describe as just one part of gay life these days. Lots of us are leading lives that bear no resemblance whatsoever to your description. So, frankly, I'm puzzled. Surely you know that what you describe is only a subculture.
    I know, but with people that are used to being shunned (ie. gays) it seems a lot of people get into that subculture as a means of acceptance. Its pervasiveness has almost made it de rigeur for homosexuals and it just helps to feed assumptions and ultimately aversion.
     
  8. philosophe

    philosophe Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Lots of issues come to the fore when you tease at the strands like this. Admittedly, that makes it harder to come with an answer to the problem, whatever that might look like.

    Another thing worth considering is the effect of homosexual culture in its current form on heterosexual culture -- and again, I don't want to reify either. In many ways, characteristics and activities that are stereotypically associated with gays (shopping, decorating, general effeminacy) have really set the boundaries for what's permissible among straights. Many straights will also avoid gay areas, which is as much a limitation for them as it is for gays who feel uncomfortable leaving those areas. As per Foucault, power moves in both directions. I get shit from my friends all the time for dressing well, enjoying cooking, etc. Interestingly, the latter isn't even a gay thing so much as a female thing.

    Thus we have a situation where, in popular consciousness, homosexuality and femininity are equated (both being seen as inferior), and opposed to heterosexuality and masculinity. Hence the importance of gender as a category for addressing these issues.

    So I would agree with your earlier point, why, about the undermining effect of things like pride rallies and hedonism for general acceptance. But insofar as some gays are conducting themselves like women, the interesting questions to me are: why do some gays associate with femininity? What does this tell us about the relationships between men and women? Do we need to address female inequality first? Etc. etc.

    It's all very confusing and complicated. [​IMG]


    This is a great post. So much anti-gay feeling is wrapped up with misogyny.

    At this point, I find myself wondering about the utility of the usual categories? If a man is doing something feminine, is he feminine or has the activity moved over to the category of masculine? This is a major issue when all the activities and traits labeled masculine (e.g., courage, intelligence, leadership, etc.) are better, and activities and traits labeled feminine (emotional attunement, care, etc) are less valuable. Is a nurturing man really less of a man? Is an intelligent woman less of a woman?

    It's true that we can make generalizations based on our experience of patterns, but we need some fluidity.
     
  9. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Well-Known Member

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    Question to those of you with more experience.

    How do the various generalizations being made about the gay community, the differences between gay and straight relationships etc change when you move from a community in which there is a longer history of gay acceptance to one which is less tolerant, while staying in the same greater community, say in the US? I don't really mean the difference in interaction between the gay and straight communities, but whether the basic structure, and various subgroups have formed differently in more gay friendly places like SF and West Hollywood, where the entire community faces less overt hostility, versus other cities in the US.
     
  10. Etienne

    Etienne Well-Known Member

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    Like I said before, people will pretend to be accepting and even go so far as to convince themselves that they're accepting but as soon as a gay person shakes their hands and greets them they go through the formalities of politeness and often never delve beyond the surface in their interaction.
    According to the last gay man I made out with, I am still pretty accepting [​IMG]

    Among other things, your mentioning of normalcy/abnormalcy in heterosexuality really advances the discussion, I think.
    That is one thing I was trying to warn you about.

    If you guys are the same, you are really hurting your chances of recruiting new members.
    But there are so many advantages that their side is still tempting, admit it.

    As I understand the research, sexual identity is more fluid for most women than for most men. I have, though, known more than a few "straight" men I'd describe as somewhat bisexual. Why must desire obey some binary opposition?
    I have the same understanding of current research (the jury is still out on how much of that is based on society and how much inherent to biology). Still, although most bisexuals I know like to think that everybody is bisexual to a certain degree, you have to admit that this is not for everybody.
     
  11. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    Question to those of you with more experience.

    How do the various generalizations being made about the gay community, the differences between gay and straight relationships etc change when you move from a community in which there is a longer history of gay acceptance to one which is less tolerant, while staying in the same greater community, say in the US? I don't really mean the difference in interaction between the gay and straight communities, but whether the basic structure, and various subgroups have formed differently in more gay friendly places like SF and West Hollywood, where the entire community faces less overt hostility, versus other cities in the US.


    Where I live now it's become very evident as the center city is cosmopolitan while surrounding areas are very socially conservative. The repression of homosexuality outside the city center has actually made a lot of gays into willing refugees from the aforementioned conservatism. As a result the downtown and surrounding areas probably have a greater homosexual demographic than normal. Most people around here have a 'live and let live' attitude toward it, but when confronted the old NIMBY attitude still shows itself.
     
  12. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense. I guess what I was getting at, though, was more along what blvfr was referencing, and that is whether in a setting in which there is less discrimination, and therefore slightly less impetus to function as a cohesive group, whether there is more friction between different subcultures, and whether there is simply more gay diversity, since it is possible to let go of an overriding identity of being simply gay. In other words, when the gay culture is seen as more normal in a given area, does it develop like any other culture, with all of the rifts and striations, or is even minimal acceptance so new in the US that even in the most open cities, there is still an important identity of being gay.

    Obviously, I am way over generalizing, but...
     
  13. Douglas

    Douglas Well-Known Member

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    Real Bisexual: Sees dude at business meeting, sucks his dick in the men's room, moves on with life, doesn't need to talk about it.

    Fake Bisexual: Acts like a dick in numerous threads, makes up story about having questionable sexuality to win general sympathy on internet men's clothing forum.

    Closeted Homosexual: Sees dude at business meeting, wants to suck his dick in the men's room, but is still kidding around with himself and dating women, posts story on internet men's clothing forum anonymously to indulge his gayness without crossing the line.
     
  14. Connemara

    Connemara Well-Known Member

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    Real Bisexual: Sees dude at business meeting, sucks his dick in the men's room, moves on with life, doesn't need to talk about it. Fake Bisexual: Acts like a dick in numerous threads, makes up story about having questionable sexuality to win general sympathy on internet men's clothing forum. Closeted Homosexual: Sees dude at business meeting, wants to suck his dick in the men's room, but is still kidding around with himself and dating women, posts story on internet men's clothing forum anonymously to indulge his gayness without crossing the line.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. LabelKing

    LabelKing Well-Known Member

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    I am proud to say I have never had the remotest urge to suck anything's appendage or slit.
     
  16. Connemara

    Connemara Well-Known Member

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    I am proud to say I have never had the remotest urge to suck anything's appendage or slit.
    You should venture to Berkeley and look for some hairy hippie slit.
     
  17. Eason

    Eason Well-Known Member

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    LabelKing, my professional opinion is that you really need to either get banged, or go bang somebody.
     
  18. LabelKing

    LabelKing Well-Known Member

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    LabelKing, my professional opinion is that you really need to either get banged, or go bang somebody.
    Actually, I've given some thought to this, and I've never had any overwhelming urge, ever.
     
  19. Connemara

    Connemara Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I've thought about this, and I've never had any overwhelming urge, ever.
    How about after Negroni number three?
     
  20. LabelKing

    LabelKing Well-Known Member

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    You should venture to Berkeley and look for some hairy hippie slit.

    I'll be sure to bring my straight razor.
     

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