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Broosk brothers 7-fold ties

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by banksmiranda, Jul 1, 2004.

  1. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Well-Known Member

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    I decided to pay a visit to Brooks Brothers today. I found (on my own) their small Golden Fleece line of 7-fold ties, surprise surprise, with their small Golden Fleece line of dress shirts. The Golden Fleece shirts and ties are made in the USA. The silk of these particular ties was woven in England. The Golden Fleece ties were pretty nice - self-tipped, but they cost $150. The Golden Fleece shirts cost $175.
     
  2. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    The Seven fold ties were Self tipped?
     
  3. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Well-Known Member

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    They were self-tipped.
     
  4. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    Contradictory statement [​IMG] If they were seven folds, they were not self tipped. If they were self tipped, they were more accurately four folds which have a lining as well. I posted about this some time ago. Banks: Did they have a lining? If not what would the purpose of the self tipping be? JJF
     
  5. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Well-Known Member

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    starting to sound like 'golden fleeced' line... (sorry couldn't resist.) [​IMG]
     
  6. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Well-Known Member

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    There are lined, self-tipped 7-fold ties, an example of which is Carlo Franco's Como line of 7-fold ties. The Carlo Franco Campagna 7-fold tie is unlined and untipped. The Golden Fleece ties did have a lining. Trust me on this. The BB four-fold ties are obviously lined, but are never self-tipped.
     
  7. shoreman80

    shoreman80 Well-Known Member

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    Brooks Bros. Online has a selection of Golden Fleece shirts on sale, which I figure is not common. I think they're 80-100 USD. Sizing is limited, but if I hadn't been so irresponsible lately  [​IMG]  I might pick one up just to try... Sorry to hijack the thread, I know nothing about the ties... (though I'm wearing a normal BB tie right now).
     
  8. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    Banks: I think that CF's como series are a good example of what we are talking about. Â In fact if you look at the site CF you see the difference between the two groups of ties. His Como Series are a self tipped four fold as is evident from the pictures on his site. Â His Campagna Series are authentic Seven Folds being all of one piece of silk and commanding a premium to the Como series which utilizes less silk. This distinction in what makes a four fold vs an Authentic seven fold was told to me by an Italian Tiemaker. Â That being said, I could be wrong anyway. [​IMG] and after my Ernest fiasco of today I am not arguing with ANYBODY. [​IMG] I am posting my original post on the different ties just for review.
     
  9. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Well-Known Member

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    I agree that unlined, untipped 7-fold is the "authentic"/original method. However, the lined, tipped 7-fold ties such as BB Golden Fleece, Carlo Franco's Como, and Kiton are definitely not 4-fold ties. These ties use essentially the same folding pattern as the "authentic" 7-folds. A 4-fold is extremely basic. The piece of silk is laid down, both sides are folded inward once (small flap), then again(big flap), and slip or saddle-stitched.
     
  10. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    Banks: Look at the blue tie on the previous post and compare it to the Como Series on the FC site and tell me what the difference is. I dont see any. JJF PS: Not Backing off [​IMG] .
     
  11. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Well-Known Member

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    Nor do I.
    Good - as long as it's a civil debate, that's how I like it. [​IMG]
     
  12. Carlo

    Carlo Well-Known Member

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    LOL... since my ties are used in both 'sides' I thought I would opine.

    The 'True 7-folds' tie like my Campagna series, or the FIH's example or Robert Talbott's are the traditional '7-fold'.

    The Double 4-fold more commonly seen in my Como series was, to the best of my knowledge, started by Kiton.

    I've done both patterns using the same silk and can tell you that a double-4 and a 'true 7' use the same amount of silk essentially.  I will always do both because some folks prefer each type.  What I ahve found is that my customers generally whisper to me "Y'know, I like the IDEA of an unlined 7-fold but truth be told I like the double 4-fold better".

    A 'true 7' is quite elegant when you look at the construction but the choice of silks appropriate for it is rather limited.  I'm sure FIH will agree that no matter how heavy the silk the 'true 7' is far more 'finicky' and likes to wrinkle and crease.

    The cost is the same but the 'double-4' has some advantages.  

    1,  The folds are symmetrical - not true in a true-7.  The double 4 could be called an 8 fold if you really want to get down to it because the silk is first doubled and then folded twice symmmetrically over a quality liner.  Some makers use only a thin linen canvas, some a double wool and some a single wool depending on the heft and fullness they want.

    2.  Wrapping around a liner helps the shape.  I have every tie made in the upper price ranges and have taken every single one apart... in short, I've 'stress tested' everything and my PERSONAL finding is that a double four is the best blend of thickness, knotting and shape.  It also allows more silk choices because most true 7's either use a double-sided weave (not many varieties) or a heavy silk with a raw back side (what I do) or a heavy jacquard that is then silk screened (talbott).  IMHO the best silks are the intricately woven ones that allow you to play with light in 3 dimensions.  I like true-7 when the silk is suited to it but find that with double-4 construction I can go a little crazy on the designs.

    In short - you have to decide what you like in a tie.  I like some heft and I like intricate weaves that do crazy things with the light.  In the 'regular standard construction' class I like Ricci, Zegna and Charvet for the sheen and tactile intigue and that influences many of our designs.

    At the end of the day i sit and listen to amny of the debates, smile, put on the tie that i am in the mood for... then carefully take the end off a Montecristo #2, pour 4 fingers of a single barrel bourbon and enjoy my evening.

    ...to date this has severely limited my ability to get ulcers or generally give a damn...  a skill that is more useful than any i have mastered.  It really is all small stuff guys :)

    Nice silk FIH - I know the mill - nice choice.
     
  13. brescd01

    brescd01 Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one confused? No, the salesman at Boyds is even more confused and had no idea what a seven-fold was (he gave me an answer but he was wrong, when I asked him to show me his seven-folds). But now I am confused again. I need pictures of  1) regular tie 2) seven fold 3) self-tipped seven fold 4) un-self-tipped seven fold. The free world depends on my understanding this (I just watched "The Grid" so maybe I am thinking a little over the top). [​IMG] I wish we had a gallery with the best threads and photos, akin to what English Lounge has to illustrate points. Steve? Carlo, the image you paint is perfect, as fine as the pictures in "Man's Best Friend" or "This England," two picture books from National Geographic whose photos I drooled over as a child, wanting to be just like the people in the pictures....
     
  14. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    David, we had a thread on types of ties but I have to edit it. I will try and find it. J once tried to get the HOF threads that were repetitive. JJF
     
  15. Carlo

    Carlo Well-Known Member

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    David - Cravatology for Dummies version...

    Reg'lar old tie - little bit of silk on front, acetate backing, wool liner if you are lucky, otherwise synthetic.

    Self tipped - a section of the same silk you find on front is used to 'back' the wide part of the tie so that it looks like the front.

    Self-looped - uses a piece of the silk as the tie keeper.

    Double 4-fold - The silk is doubled over a lining and then each side is folded inward twice for a thick, heavy tie that holds it's shape.

    "True" 7 fold tie - no liner at all, edges are rolled under and sewn, the large piece of silk is folded inward in varying methods (no two people who do it are going to listen if you tell'm to do it your way, they will throw things (usually sharp) at you until you leave the room).

    Self tipped 7-fold: Sort of a misnomer since there is no backing. SOME silks are woven such that either side looks the same.

    So whether double 4 or 7 is really better depends on your personal preferences, each has certain advantages. In either case the important thing at this level of neckwear is keep it out of your soup :)
     
  16. FIHTies

    FIHTies Well-Known Member

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    Carlo:

    Great responses. We have missed your expertise these few months. Welcome back.


    While I agree with you that the possibilities are better with the 4 fold, I PERSONALLY was less enchanted with the 4 folds which together with the lining and the second layer of silk becomes very bulky and makes the tying of any knot other than a Four In Hand very difficult. You also limit your collars that you can wear this with.

    I agree as well that the silks used are more finicky and lie a little stiffer as only the silk weave is giving you the body, however the knot tied with the Seven folds is simply magnificient and adjusts easily to the touch.

    I am waiting for customers to complain that they have snagged the rear of the raw backed ties which in the Jacqards can get stringy due to the design and very easily snagged. Have you had this complaint yet?

    Many of my ties are the intricately woven ones you speak of (aside from the mill whom you are referring to Chuck) which photograh poorly due to how the light hits them but have a beautiful depth to them depending on which way they hit the regular light.

    Loved your Selection of Seven Folds on your site BTW. Particularly the 04, 05 and 06.

    JJF

    PS: What Bourbon do you drink?
     
  17. Carlo

    Carlo Well-Known Member

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    ....generally regular old Wellers

    Basil Hayden, Knobb Creek are also favorites and on special occasions the Wellers antique 107 is worth the hangover.

    On the 'raw' silks yes, the more intricate the more fragile :)

    On thickness it is interesting, everyone has a different preference. I recently went through about a dozen of the best liners to figure out which one I liked for flexibility and 'plushness' and then steamed, ironed, stomped on and generally abused them to see which survived and which turned into crap.... but I'm weird (now there's a newsflash).
     
  18. jcusey

    jcusey Well-Known Member

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    PS: What Bourbon do you drink?
    ....generally regular old Wellers Basil Hayden, Knobb Creek are also favorites and on special occasions the Wellers antique 107 is worth the hangover. On the 'raw' silks yes, the more intricate the more fragile :) On thickness it is interesting, everyone has a different preference. I recently went through about a dozen of the best liners to figure out which one I liked for flexibility and 'plushness' and then steamed, ironed, stomped on and generally abused them to see which survived and which turned into crap.... but I'm weird (now there's a newsflash).
    I'll try anything once, but my current favorite is Van Winkle 10 YO. I'm trying to convince myself that the 20 YO is worth the money... As for the liners, okay, I'll bite: how did you select the dozen best liners, and what did you conclude from your tests? Enquiring minds want to know.
     

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