1. Welcome to the new Styleforum!

    We hope you’re as excited as we are to hang out in the new place. There are more new features that we’ll announce in the near future, but for now we hope you’ll enjoy the new site.

    We are currently fine-tuning the forum for your browsing pleasure, so bear with any lingering dust as we work to make Styleforum even more awesome than it was.

    Oh, and don’t forget to head over to the Styleforum Journal, because we’re giving away two pairs of Carmina shoes to celebrate our move!

    Please address any questions about using the new forum to support@styleforum.net

    Cheers,

    The Styleforum Team

    Dismiss Notice

Bentivegna construction

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by jcusey, Jun 27, 2004.

  1. jcusey

    jcusey Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,802
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    T4Phage's recent comment to marc37 regarding Santoni's varying levels of quality brought this up again in my mind. Some Italian manufacturers (notably Santoni and Lattanzi) boast that some of their shoes are made with Bentivegna construction. Here's what the Santoni website has to say about it:
    Well, that sounds a lot like a regular old hand-welted shoe to me. Is it?
     
  2. T4phage

    T4phage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,117
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Location:
    sage
    Even the rep had a hard time explaining it to me. I am still a bit lost. [​IMG] However, a shoemaker/repair person told me that it was similar to a German construction, something to do with double stitching of the welt. Maybe Bengal-Stripe may be of more help. btw. when do you get the Perry boots? [​IMG] You're getting the chukkas right?
     
  3. jcusey

    jcusey Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,802
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Sometimes I think that I'm going to have to become a cordwainer to figure out all the things that I want to figure out about shoe construction.
    I was told 4 months at the beginning of June, so perhaps by the beginning of October. They're model 631, so they're Chelseas, not chukkas.
     
  4. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,441
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Location:
    London, UK
    No, I haven't worked out yet what Bentivegna construction is (something flashy, that's for sure). I believe, and that's only a guess, that Bentivegna is a row of stitching from the outside to combine upper and welt. (In normal Goodyear that stitching is underneath the shoe and out of sight.) In that Branchini shoe t4phage has posted, [​IMG] the upper row would be Bentivegna, while the row below is Norwegian. (See how the upper is turned out and then stitched onto the welt.) If I'm right, then Bentivegna is a construction method where upper and welt are stitched from the outside right at the join, where in Goodyear is normally a ditch. Berluti offers on their web-site shoes in Goodyear, Blake and Norwegian construction (we all know those) but also in Africa and Ferrarese construction. I have no idea about these construction methods.
    They offer all kind of residential courses "Learn cooking in Tuscany", maybe some enterprising Italian cobbler can put on a summer school "Make your own shoes in Tuscany".
     
  5. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Here's a pictorial description of Norvegese, aka Bentivegna, construction from the Japanese shoe magazine Last. There is no welt and the upper and lining are stitched directly into the side of the insole. The magazine also shows "Norwegian construction," which is exactly the same as Bentivegna, except that in the case of Norwegian, the insole and lining are stitched into a feather/holdfast of the insole. The magazine also makes a distinction between "Norwegian construction" and "Norwegian welted construction. Bentivegna
     
  6. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
  7. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,582
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Thing is, when it comes to Santoni shoes at least, Norvegese and Bentivegna are different constructions. And the pic of the "Norvegese" construction does not match Santoni's Bentivegna - the Bentivegna is done with an external welt strip. I think it is done without a feather though. Also, there is something different about the Bentivegna - the external welt strip changes directions just behind the ball of the foot. What I mean is that around the forefoot, the welt is curved outward and stitched down to the sole directly, like a Norwegian, but in the rear of the shoe it is either trimmed or it curves down underneath the sole. I'm not quite sure how it works. While visiting the Santoni store in New York I had occasion to examine a half-made Bentivegna shoe and some company literature that is not generally available. I still couldn't figure it out...
     
  8. TomW

    TomW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    436
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Location:
    the wastes of the Northern Nevada desert
    Harris - I hope to someday know one tenth of the information you share so freely.

    Warmest regards,
    Tom
     
  9. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Andy, the truth is out there. I'm thinking that with the resources we have: you, shoefan, t4phage, jcusey, bengal-stripe, we must be able to figure this out. Perhaps a Style Forum member who speaks Japanese can translate the text that goes with the picture, and that may provide further illumination. Does the pictorial of the Norvegese/Bentivegna match that of Santoni's Norvegese models?
     
  10. T4phage

    T4phage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,117
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Location:
    sage
    I agree with A.Harris concerning the "bentivegna" construction. The ones on my Santoni and Lattanzi is as he describes.
     
  11. T4phage

    T4phage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,117
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Location:
    sage
    Based on Cherrytree's link, has anyone figured out the difference between the Norwegian welted and Reverse welted constructions?

    Also, is there a way to differentiate between Norvegese and Norwegian constructions via a visual/tactile inspection? Or is the only method ripping the shoe apart?
     
  12. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,441
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Location:
    London, UK
    That's how I understand it (no guaranties given):

    Norwegian construction is similar to Veldtschoen, the lining gets turned inside and is stitched to the welt, the upper is turned outside and stitched to the protruding sole. While in English Veldtschoen upper and sole edge are cut flush, the Italians like the upper to be recessed by a few mm from the sole edge and to introduce an extra step.

    Norwegian welt is a storm welt, which is stitched to the outside of the shoe (rather like a sandbag in front of your door to prevent flooding). A split reverse welt is a storm welt (slightly thicker than normal), which is cut halfway trough horizontally. The upper part is folded up (to form the sand bag) while the lower part is stitched underneath the shoe like a normal welt. Both storm welts are stitched on the outer edge through the sole.

    Yes, Bentigvegna is still robbing me of sleep.
     
  13. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
  14. DARLEY

    DARLEY Active Member

    Messages:
    36
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Hello.

    As for Norwegian welted, a feather is made with a knife and welting is hand-sewn. As for Reverse welted, a feather is bonded to a insole and welting is machine-sewn.

    I suppose so.
     
  15. A Harris

    A Harris Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,582
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    I concur. It took staring at the pic for a while to see the line indicating that the feather was bonded on the "reverse welted" picture. It should be said that not all manufacturers are going to abide by this terminology. Vass for instance calls their shoes "reverse welted" though the feather is cut into the insole by hand.

    Also, these diagrams leave out one component - as often as not there is a third row of stitching going through the the midsole, not to mentioned the braided stitch used on some Norwegians.

    Still wrapping my mind around the veldtschoen...
     
  16. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I imagine that you could tell by seeing and feeling the top of the insole along the edges of the inside of the shoe. Since, according to the diagram, the Norwegian construction uses a feather skived into the insole, you should be able to see and feel the dimpling caused by the stitch pulling against the feather. Based on the diagrams, I believe the inside of a Norwegian shoe would look similar to the inside of a Hand-sewn Welted shoe.

    In the case of the Norvegese, I'm not sure what effect, if any, appears by having the stitch horizontally sewn into the side of the insole. Assuming that the insole doesn't dimple the way that a Norwegian does, we should be able to discern the difference between the two constructions. Unfortunately, I've never (knowingly) seen a Norvegese constructed shoe, so I'm not sure what to look for on the insole. Does anyone else know what to look for?
     
  17. DARLEY

    DARLEY Active Member

    Messages:
    36
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Hi. There isn't much difference between Norvegese and Norwegian and the difference is how to make a feather, I think. Also, there isn't much difference between Norwegian-welted and Reverse-welted. There is no international standard terminology on shoe construction, right? I guess that book has only distinguished so. Weston is offering Norvegese/Norwegian shoes. You can see here. http://www.jmweston.com/ Pleaese go "Production" and you'll find the toe of "Chasse 677(Hunt Derby)" I heard from a salesperson that 677 is hand-lasted, hand-welted and machine-sewn-outsole. Even if shoes are hand-welted, it is possible that we cannot see the dimpling marks on the insole. Whether we can see them or not depends on the thickness of the insole and on the depth of the sewing, I heard from the cobbler who can make shoes. I couldn't see the dimpling marks as for 677.
     
  18. cherrytree

    cherrytree Member

    Messages:
    19
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    What I found interesting/confusing about the Norvegese diagram is that there is no feather. It appears that the stitch is sewn directly into the side of the insole. This strikes me as a pretty difficult operation and would require a thick insole.

    I believe the reason you see no dimpling with Weston shoes is that they (uniquely, as far as I know) use a cut-and-turned feather, whereas every other maker (who doesn't use a glued-on feather) uses a hand-skived feather (as shown in the Vass book). Weston uses a machine that carves a 1/4" slice of leather near the edge of the insole and turns this feather 90 degrees so that it's perpendicular to the bottom of the insole. The cut-and-turned process creates a weak feather so Weston then reinforces the feather by glueing a strip of linen on it. The final result with a cut-and-turned feather is that, similar to a glued-on feather, the welt stitch places less stress on any specific section of the main body of the insole, and thus there is no dimpling.
     
  19. Bic Pentameter

    Bic Pentameter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    796
    Joined:
    May 1, 2002
    Location:
    Seattle
    Here is a rough translation of Cherrytree's page....


    3. Norwegian Style
    The greatest characteristic of this style is that you can see the stitching of the seam on the upper surface. However, in many this is merely decoration and serves no structural function.  This shoe finds its origins in Norway, but depending on the maker, the manufacturing process can vary significantly.  In Europe, for example, in France, shoes with the seam stitching mentioned above are today called "Norwegians."

    G. Norwegian Construction
    First a feather is cut away from the bottom portion of the insole. With this feather, the upper lining is parallel-stitched together with the insole. Then, the upper edge that faces outward is stitched to the outsole on the lip edge. The Norwegian construction combines both minmal side to side give and flexibility, and has long been used in mountain climbing shoes and the like.  Famous as the construction used in J.M. Weston's De Gaul.

    H. Norwegian Welted Construction
    An "L" shaped curved welt is placed on top of the small lip edge used in the Norwegian Construction, and a parallel stitch is made to the outside of the shoe.  (There are also cases in which the stitches do not extend outside of the upper as is shown in the picture). In other words, this is a construction in which the welt and stitches in the (A) shoe are entirely exposed on the outer portion of the shoe.  Because the welt does not penetrate into the inner portion of the shoe, water resistance is greater than in the Norwegian Construction (G). Today, this construction is only seen in special order mountain climbing shoes and the like

    I.  Reverse Welted Construction
    The point of difference between this model and the Norwegian Welted Construction (H) is that rather than creating the feather, cloth sewing tape is affixed.  In other words, the welt and stitches from (B) are entirely exposed on the outside the shoe.  Actually, many shoes that called Norwegian Welted Construction (H) are made in this manner. The waterproofing properties are extremely great, as is the case with Norwegian Welted Construction (H). This process is often used in country shoes.

    J.\tNorvegese Construction
    The difference with Norwegian Welted Construction (G) is that instead of creating the feather in bottom portion of the insole, a line of stitches rises up along the insole at the point where that surface and the upper lining are directly stitched together.  It is said that Mr. Stephano Brancini(?), an Italian, has recently devised ways to simplify Norwegian Construction (G) and Norwegian Welted Construction (H).  When a welt that has an L-shaped surface is placed on top of the lip edge and parallel stitched together so that the stitching may be seen on the outside of the shoe, it is sometimes called the Bentivegna Construction.
     
  20. DARLEY

    DARLEY Active Member

    Messages:
    36
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    It is difficult to express in words, but this is a simplified feather compared with the hand-skived feather as shown in the Vass book. This insole has only a slit/notch made with a knife.

    This insole(feather) is used for almost machine-made shoes. Weston is offering 3 kinds of ready-made shoes; almost machine-made, half-hand-half-machine made and almost hand-made. Only 677 is the ready-made shoes which are almost hand-made as far as I know, and the price is the most expensive. I have never taken 677 apart, so I don't know the shape of 677's feather(as I said, there are some methods for making a feather.), but they have a hand-skived feather, as shown in Weston's catalog.

    PS
    I wrote "677 is hand-lasted, hand-welted and machine-sewn-outsole.", but 677 has no welt, so this is not the strictly right expression.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by