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Ask a Fitness Model

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by Noir., Jan 16, 2009.

  1. rjmaiorano

    rjmaiorano Well-Known Member

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    Dude. I am a big believer in insulin sensitivity and timing things properly, so at some point I'll read your take on it. But jesus you musta took a lot of time to write all that out.
     
  2. thekunk07

    thekunk07 Well-Known Member

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    ^yes. i'm currently doing 4 days at less than 50g carbs a day, 2 days at 100g and a final refeed day. only doing 5 x 5 in the gym, though modified like soemthing reg park would have done. protein is @400g/day.

    however, once every 2 weeks i'm doing a high-rep depletion workout.

    so far, so good. feeling a bit flat, but nothing that tren/deca won;t fix (though it will kill my bird for awhile)
     
  3. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    Dude. I am a big believer in insulin sensitivity and timing things properly, so at some point I'll read your take on it. But jesus you musta took a lot of time to write all that out.

    girl problems and killing time on a friday night. It's something I talk about a lot though so I can write most of it with my eyes closed :[​IMG]

    ^yes. i'm currently doing 4 days at less than 50g carbs a day, 2 days at 100g and a final refeed day. only doing 5 x 5 in the gym, though modified like soemthing reg park would have done. protein is @400g/day.

    however, once every 2 weeks i'm doing a high-rep depletion workout.

    so far, so good. feeling a bit flat, but nothing that tren/deca won;t fix (though it will kill my bird for awhile)


    I can see how you would have better luck on a ketogenic-based diet than someone like me would. I'm an ecto and you seem to be a meso-endo. I get the shits if I go too high on protein so I generally stick to 1.5 and make up my calorie difference in fats, though with keto my protein was something like 2.0. Something you might want to consider (and you may already be doing) is if you're only doing 100g on a refeed (hardly a refeed tbh, but again I can see why you would prefer it) is kick the majority of those in the morning and PWO. Maybe half and half. That way you'll be close to or almost ketogenic when you wake up the next morning instead of having it take 2 days if you spaced them evenly over meals.

    And yes, tren will probably say bye bye to the birdie [​IMG]

    Flat is easy to fix if you're already glycogen depleted though. 5 or 6 days and you can rip out any subcutaneous fluids and hit up some donuts/rice cakes/full sugar soda/(ughhhhh) glycerol and look pretty damn good. I wouldn't recommend sodium manipulation though - I did it a week ago for my last shoot and looked like trash for about a week after because I binged once we were finished on pizza... Finally getting back on track.
     
  4. thekunk07

    thekunk07 Well-Known Member

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    yeah, sodium manip kills me as far as water retention and i am definitely endo-meso.

    to correct my post, my 4th day of 7 is 100g and my refeed (day 7) is roughly 400g carbs.
     
  5. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't have been a big deal if I didn't gorge myself afterwards. I wasn't as lean for this shoot as I have been for others... maybe 9%? so I needed some kind of help. It's hit or miss and easy to screw up, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

    and a 400g refeed once a week makes infinitely more sense.
     
  6. Jumbie

    Jumbie Well-Known Member

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    caloric deficit is fine, but the severity of the defecit was the issue. If you're 2k below what you're using, you should theoreitcally be losing almost a pound per day so 7 pounds per week.

    I'm a personal trainer, though that counts for little these days. I'm also a sports nutritionist

    Say what now?
     
  7. thekunk07

    thekunk07 Well-Known Member

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    ^where the hell have you been, jumble?
     
  8. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    2k below maintenance + 2 workouts per day. 3500 kcals = 1 lb of fat. There's 600 calories in a pound of muscle. You won't lose a pound of fat per day.

    What's the issue?
     
  9. Jumbie

    Jumbie Well-Known Member

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    Took a break and went to visit my parents over Christmas. Doing a busy month now (2 weeks left) at school with overnight call every 4 days and actually just got back into the gym after a year and a half hiatus so not going to be around much although I am lurking a bit every now and then.

    Hope all is well with you and the missus and your cut gives you the results you want.
     
  10. Jumbie

    Jumbie Well-Known Member

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    2k below maintenance + 2 workouts per day. 3500 kcals = 1 lb of fat. There's 600 calories in a pound of muscle. You won't lose a pound of fat per day.

    What's the issue?


    Issue = my interpretation of your statement - "If you're 2k below what you're using".

    I read that [as a stand-alone statement] as the total deficit not just the decreased caloric intake without counting energy expenditure.
     
  11. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    Issue = my interpretation of your statement - "If you're 2k below what you're using".

    I read that [as a stand-alone statement] as the total deficit not just the decreased caloric intake without counting energy expenditure.


    ah not a big deal. Even counting energy expenditure you could make a rationale argument that theoretically losing a pound a day is possible due to the number of calories in a pound muscle. The real point though was your body is going to take time to take off the fat, but muscle atrophy is much easier. At 1k calories even if it's entirely protein that's only 250g. counting protein's TEF that takes it down to 175, and the double workout will wreck that number even further through gluconeogenesis. I have no idea how much energy that process takes but I do know it's far from ideal. That's essentially why ketogenic diets work so well but the amount of protein intake is MUCH higher... and generally there are still some carbs. Even so, I lost significant amounts of muscle on it compared to a slower method of dieting.

    If you want to maintain any semblance of muscle, a huge defecit is definitely not the right way to go about it imho. Otherwise you might hit your weight goal but be skinny-fat and still not look any better.
     
  12. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    Where the hell do you get the idea that there's 600kcal in a pound of muscle? It depends on the muscle and so many other factors that such a blanket statement like that is inherently wrong.

    And muscle atrophy is a fuckload harder than losing fat...

    Please stop theorizing and actually practice it...you'll see much different results than Windows Calculator gives.
     
  13. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    Where the hell do you get the idea that there's 600kcal in a pound of muscle? It depends on the muscle and so many other factors that such a blanket statement like that is inherently wrong. And muscle atrophy is a fuckload harder than losing fat... Please stop theorizing and actually practice it...you'll see much different results than Windows Calculator gives.
    Muscles are around 30% protein (the rest being water, blood, etc. extraneous non-calorie stuff). 1 lb is just over 450 grams. 450 grams *0.3 = 135 grams * 4 calories/gram = 540. Yeah it's a rough estimate, but the blanket statement isn't inherently wrong. Neither atrophy or fat loss is particularly difficult, but at such a defecit it's a real issue if that's not what you're going after. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. If you think what I'm saying is far enough off base to dismiss it altogether, then do so and don't listen. You've pointed out that you think I'm wrong, so let's leave it at that and not derail the thread too much. Everyone is going to respond differently based on their own genetics and predispositions. I'm simply giving my advice and opinions. I do practice what I preach. The numbers are rarely exactly what my spreadsheet pops up, but they're in the vicinity. And it's done well for me thus far.
     
  14. SVS

    SVS Well-Known Member

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    I had a client I was working with in preparation for a bodybuilding show who had done some modeling before and introduced me to a few photographers. They liked me and asked if I was interested. I was bored and in okay shape already so I figured what the hell.

    The pay was terrible but it was a lot of fun and the girls I shot with were beautiful. I'm sure the top guys do okay, but it's more for shits and giggles. I don't have the face to expect more than a little bit of fun during the process.


    I did this for men's clothing for a while. The pay wasn't great, but it every show had women and there was usual some time to mingle. Having to do a pre-show fitting sucked. The deal was usually a few dollars, free food, meet a few ladies and an ego boost for a day of my time. I miss being broke, fit and having time extra time (aka college).

    Like OP, I was specifically asked to do a show and it went from there. If you're ever offered the chance, do it!
     
  15. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    Muscles are around 30% protein (the rest being water, blood, etc. extraneous non-calorie stuff). 1 lb is just over 450 grams. 450 grams *0.3 = 135 grams * 4 calories/gram = 540. Yeah it's a rough estimate, but the blanket statement isn't inherently wrong.
    Water and IMTG vary a lot. Equating poundages to calories for muscle is just so wrong. Compare london broil to a porterhouse, then turn the london broil into beef jerky for further comparison. It's just wrong...don't do it. Especially since muscle proteins aren't metabolized anything like fat since they're not a ready fuel source and need a whole lot of conversion.
     
  16. marc237

    marc237 Well-Known Member

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    why is this so? caloric deficit is okay if protein is heavy and workouts are fast but furious. it's prefereable to most people's misconception of dieting and doing high-rep, high-volume training.

    I have no objection to calorie deficit while working out. I do it myself when cutting. My qualifier was "severe" and it was in the context of responding to a poster who posed the notion of exercising heavy while on a 1K per day calorie intake. A 500 calorie a day deficit from lowered intake is doable, a deficit of more than 1,200 is, in my opinion, not wise.
     
  17. Kas

    Kas Well-Known Member

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    You advocate training to failure while many influential writers oppose that idea. Could you give your reasoning?
     
  18. why

    why Well-Known Member

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    Failure is a decent get-you-by method of working out toward a max. It's not essential, but it just helps with beginner programming.
     
  19. Hard2Fit

    Hard2Fit Well-Known Member

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  20. Noir.

    Noir. Well-Known Member

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    Water and IMTG vary a lot. Equating poundages to calories for muscle is just so wrong. Compare london broil to a porterhouse, then turn the london broil into beef jerky for further comparison.

    It's just wrong...don't do it. Especially since muscle proteins aren't metabolized anything like fat since they're not a ready fuel source and need a whole lot of conversion.


    Apples to oranges (cooked/dehydrated versus muscles in the body). Like I said we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The poundage loss was a guestimate based on those numbers. I don't agree with such a large defecit because muscle wasting becomes a big concern imo. That's the last I'm going to say on this subject. Everyone is different and behaves differently, so anything must be taken with a grain of salt. Try different things and find what works best for you. This thread is just about what has worked for me in the past. I state everything as fact because it's simpler to get my point across that way.

    You advocate training to failure while many influential writers oppose that idea. Could you give your reasoning?

    Honestly, like everything else -- it depends. Complete failure would be like the point where you have absolutely no glycogen left and lifting any amount of weight becomes nigh impossible. I personally don't go to that point any more, though I do know a few people who do and have had a lot of success with it. A few years ago I tried it with a friend for a few months and while we had some success with it, it generally left us feeling like dogshit for the rest of the day and the next (specifically referring to leg days).

    I suppose fatigue would be the more opt word choice when discussing rep ranges. Failure to me seems to imply higher rep work. When discussing 6-8 for example, I'm referring to using a weight you can perform between 6 and 8 repetitions using strict form (not cheat or forced reps). Some will choose 8-12 or 6-10 -- this was just trial and error for me. Experiment. I have a tiny frame (6.5" wrists. waist when dieted down is typically between 25 and 27". This is part of the reason I look much larger on camera than my weight would imply.) so I get a lot of benefit from the lower rep ranges with respect to muscle growth. Some heavier built people might benefit from 8-10 or 8-12 more. It's quite hard to say for sure without meeting with the person and at least get a general idea of their build and exercise history.

    With respect to the drop sets, I've only included them once before several years ago. It was fun to get the pump and I walked out of the gym feelings more accomplished (say it's an arm day and you can curl 115. by the end of the set you struggle to curl a 45 lb bar even a few times.), but I can't honestly say I noticed any significant difference in growth. I've incorporated it again just to try something different and beat down some of the monotony in the gym. I can see how it could be moderately useful to pre-exhaust as well.

    If you could give an example of a writer advocating not training to failure, I would be happy to give a comment or opinion on the matter. There are correct ideas on both sides of the fence on this topic imo.
     

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