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3 roll 2.5 with peaked lapels

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by patrickBOOTH, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. Sator

    Sator Well-Known Member

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    What on earth is a 3 roll 2.5 and a 3 roll 2? :puzzled:
     
  2. Thin White Duke

    Thin White Duke Well-Known Member

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    A single breasted three button jacket can come in three forms.

    A 'hard three' which almost all my jackets and suits are, think English sixties mod look. Top and middle button should be fastened.

    A 'three roll 2.5' where only the middle button is fastened. The lapels then roll in a gracious curve from the middle button upwards into the lower portion of the lapel. this is a classic style and probably the most common.

    A 'three roll 2' in which only the middle button is fastened but the lapel above the middle button does not roll in gracefully as above, but is instead ironed flat so that the top button is hidden behind the folded pressed lapel and the top buttonhole is visible in the lower quarter of the lapel. This somehow became a trend in ivy league suits and is continued to this day by those who like that vintage look. It has essentially become a two-button jacket but with the top button and buttonhole adornments. Personally I don't like this look at all but I'm not from America where the style began and continues.

    Anyway this explains the oft-quoted mantra when it comes to buttoning three button jackets. From the top down:

    Sometimes
    Always
    Never

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. Sator

    Sator Well-Known Member

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    ^ What you are describing are not differences in the cut or construction at all.

    There is actually no such thing as either a 3-to-2 or 3-to-2.5, except as iGent myth. A coat is bridled so that it is constructed to button-two or button-three. There are no in between ways of bridling a coat.

    However, you can make up a button-two coat and then add in an extra decorative buttonhole at the top. In fact, you can do retro fit any button-two coat you have with just such a "show button". You will need to know how to make buttonholes and you may need to cut away a bit of the haircloth at the roll line above the second buttonhole. You then add a decorative show button, to make your button-two coat one with an extra show button. The traditional British term is then "button-two show-one". This means that the coat has been cut/constructed as a button-two coat but the phrase "show one" indicates that the top button is purely for show only. The misleading American term is "3-to-2", but it is wrong because it isn't a button-three coat at all - but rather a button-two coat with an extra decorative "show button" added in, almost as an afterthought.

    Most three button lounge coats are bridled to button-three. If left unbuttoned, you will see that the natural tendency of the lapel is to roll to the top button. However, fashion may dictate that you leave the top button unfastened (I say fashion because at times it has been fashionable to button the top button). This doesn't change the fact that the coat is still constructed to button-three. It is not a button-two coat with an extra decorative show button on the lapel. It is a button-three coat on which the top button has been left unfastened.

    In short, all lounges are cut, constructed/bridled to button-one, two, three or four. You can add in as many other decorative show buttons above the bridle as you want, and it won't change this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  4. VelvetGreen

    VelvetGreen Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Sator. All of this 'roll' stuff is nonsense. It is either a two or three button coat with varying lapel rolls dependent on the characteristics of the material and the construction.
     
  5. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    ^ I think you are really missing the point, Sator.
     
  6. TonyThe Tailor

    TonyThe Tailor Well-Known Member

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    I will ask the client if he minds.
     
  7. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference in construction between a roll 2 of 2.5 though I believe the terms aren't used by noninternet tailors.

    On a 2.5 the tape which largely dictates lapel shape ends higher up than it would on a 2 button. In that case it would look silly without the show button.

    I the OP, I think it can be fine. I think it depends more on the cloth than anything.

     
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to do peaked lapels, I think you should stick to one or two buttons. 3/2 or 3/2.5 is a more relaxed, slightly whimsical setup. Totally incongruent with the formality and sharpness of peaks.
     
  9. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but for different reasons - I think peaks look best when they have a nice long lapel line, especially since they are usually slightly broader than notches. IMO you have less headroom for raising the gorge because on peaks IMO a too-high gorge arguably looks more stupid than a too-high gorge on a notch. So that leaves the buttoning point.
     
  10. Sator

    Sator Well-Known Member

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    The actual point being....?

    Please enlighten this fool :)
     
  11. Sator

    Sator Well-Known Member

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    The bridle (not necessarily made of tape) mostly ends well short of the top button anyway.

    I would like to see an example of a tailor setting the crease line higher than the top button. Until I see it, I am calling BS I'm afraid, but would be pleased to be proven wrong. :nodding:
     
  12. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    You're not a fool.

    Whether you care to admit it or not, there are differences in construction between a 3B, a 2B or a 3R2, which Canta has touched on.

    And whether you care to use them or not, they do provide a useful shorthand for a particular style, at least here on SF.

    I think TWD is wrong in his definitions, but at the same time I think your reply was missing the point of the whole 3R2/3R2.5 terminology.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2011
  13. GBR

    GBR Well-Known Member

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    Dreadful, I suspect.
     
  14. academe

    academe Well-Known Member

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    I think it's interesting that Gordon Yao on the affiliate thread recently referred to a "3-roll-2" that he made for a customer as "a three buttons using two design" ... It left me wondering what he meant until you wrote this explanation...

    http://www.styleforum.net/forum/thr...rs-official-affiliate-thread/120#post_4673201
     
  15. Parker

    Parker Well-Known Member

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    nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
  16. Sator

    Sator Well-Known Member

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    ...the difference in construction being...?????

    Personally, I suspect that the difference arises depending on how much roll of the lapel you have. If a coat is fused and the lapel fold is ironed flat, you tend not to get a roll, and it looks more obvious that the coat is a button-two with an extra show button. When a coat is canvassed and bridled to button-two, and you cut the haircloth well short of the buttoning point, you see a clearer roll. I doubt that anyone bridles a coat to a buttoning point half way between the top and second button, as all this would result in is a convex lapel crease line when the coat is buttoned up (to button-two).

    This business of 3-to-2.574598 or whatever, is just a iGent attempt to explain these difference in the amount of roll.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is an igent thing. You can take a true three button coat and press it to roll like a 2.5, however it spreads the gorge area away from the neck more, which can cause gaping and such. I feel like if a jacket is being made with a 3 roll 2.5 in mind the collar and gorge area would need more cloth thrown towards the neck to avoid gaping. Can we get Jeffery, or Chris in on this?
     
  18. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    Tailors can adjust the height at which a lapel rolls. Don't know how. Could be voodoo magic for all I care. But I know they can adjust the height at which a lapel rolls, and do so via a process independent of ironing.

    You actually touch on how it may happen on your post:


    Ding ding ding - so we can adjust the construction to determine the roll? Could we perhaps adjust the height at which it happens then?


    Yeah, precisely.

    Just like I said - it's shorthand for a look. Same as 'sack suit'. Same as 'zoot suit'. Same as 'drainpipe'. Same as 'oxford bag'. A shorthand for a look. A simple phrase that lets the other (appropriately educated party) know exactly what I'm talking about.

    And like I suspected - you seem determined to ignore this because of the typical Sator intentional/unintentional obtuseness and talk past me, or because you have an axe to grind with the evil iGents who are taking the fun out of your ineffably captivating discussions of anachronistic tailoring styles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  19. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    Also, you won't be able to get as graceful of a roll with a shorter roll line. I feel like there needs to be a little "slack" if you will otherwise the tension from the collar on the neck and buttonpoint almost pulls the lapel flat.
     
  20. yachtie

    yachtie Well-Known Member

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    Kinda silly in the "formal lapels on an informal cut" way.
     
    1 person likes this.

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