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Vass discontinuing US sales? - Page 9

post #121 of 174
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Some products require advertising, Vass requires only customer education.
vass could sell the u last at fred segal for $1200 and people would buy it, no education required.
post #122 of 174
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I wonder whether *all* of your clients are appreciative your shirts based *solely* on their quality, or whether at least some fraction of your clients are turned on by the prospect of having shirts that only a very select segment of the population can afford. I think that human nature dictates that at least some of your clients are attracted by the exclusivity of your shirts as much as by your handiwork and materials.
I am sorry you feel this way. The more you and Brian expound your concepts and philosophies regarding bespoke tailored clothing, the less acumen you reveal. Get this: Most who wear Kiton and Brioni and RLPL are proud to state that fact. Most who wear Kabbaz and Shattuck and Nicolosi and Fioravanti and Vaingauz do not reveal where they commission their clothing. Period. Thus, your theory is ... hogwash. Now I'm *sorry* in advance if this sounds like an *annoyed* response, but I'm getting a bit tired of the virtually daily sniping from the LA & SD. But that's *OK* ... after all, reaction is *human* nature.
post #123 of 174
If one is trying show off the size of one's...er...wallet, one would get more mileage with 99% of the population by showing off a Hugo Boss label than one would any bespoke tailor.
post #124 of 174
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1)Yes, it is. For an exclusive product, which is what many stores want to sell, the volume will always be very low, never enough to warrant much of an advertising budget.     2)a) English shoes are not more expensive, they are less expensive, and b) a good salesman is not going to, and will not need to make apologies for where the shoes are made. 3)If that is true, I'm sure we'll see world-class shoes completely hand made in China show up at any time now... 4) Louis pioneers brands - that is a big reason why they are so famous. They have dropped Lattanzi, Mantellassi and just about every other top shoe brand before they carried Vass - and were probably the first to carries those lines as well. They are famous for dropping lines for a variety of reasons, and moving on to the next. You are speculating. 5) In any event, what Gabor said is the most important. We certainly hope that US customers will be able to appreciate Vass shoes as the beautiful and unique product that they are. But if they don't, that's their loss.. It would just mean that more of the very limited annual production goes to appreciative customers in Europe and Japan.
AHarris: 1)Of course, its silly to spend lots of money advertising with such limited production. That doesn't mean Vass shouldn't have a budget to help promote itself through guerilla marketing, etc.. I think its also not wise to expect that just placing the shoes at these stores will be enough, and expect these stores to do all the work and sell them for you. That's why Vass wants to open up its own retail store to have some control over these issues. Otherwise, Vass is giving up too much control, and leaving its fate in the hands of others who may or may not really care. 2) I don't see how your competition shoes are not more expensive. I thought that was the whole gist of this thread, that Vass shoes are underpriced for its quality in comparison to its competition. Salesmen do not necessairly do what's in their customers' best interest or the product they're selling. The key to Vass's sucucces is an educated customer, and you'll need a motivated salesman to do that. 3) China also has a rich heritage with luxuries, much longer than most countries. However, it suffers from an image problem, where we don't associate it with high end goods. That doesn't mean that it cannot foster a similar boutique company. To me, it seems that products from Hungary would face the problems that high end Chinese products would, although to a much lesser extent. 4) Of course, its speculation. But, I just wonder why a store would drop a brand that's succesful, especially if it had an exclusive deal which you said yourself is what many stores want. I've read somewhere that Louis drops many brands, but I would imagine they did it to retain their exclusive image because other stores started to carry those brands. 5) I'm just curious, will a European brand succed in Japan without first being succesful in Europe first? Let's say Vass wasn't succesful or well know in Europe. Would the Japanese be willing to support such a company?
post #125 of 174
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I am sorry you feel this way. The more you and Brian expound your concepts and philosophies regarding bespoke tailored clothing, the less acumen you reveal. Get this: Most who wear Kiton and Brioni and RLPL are proud to state that fact. Most who wear Kabbaz and Shattuck and Nicolosi and Fioravanti and Vaingauz do not reveal where they commission their clothing. Period. Thus, your theory is ... hogwash.
Hi Alex, Sorry to have to disagree, but a large part of the allure of Kiton and Brioni and RLPL is exclusivity. It is not a huge logical leap to say that the people who buy these brands would be attracted even more by exclusivity of a bespoke piece like a Fioravanti suit or a Kabbaz shirt. Whether they advertise the brand or not is immaterial. And Alex, please do not construe my skepticism about the motivations of perhaps just a small fraction of your clientele as a personal attack on you or your work.. It just seems naive to assume that all people who buy bespoke do so because they appreciate it's qualities rather than because of the branding (in the sense that bespoke is, in and of itself, branding.)
post #126 of 174
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If one is trying show off the size of one's...er...wallet, one would get more mileage with 99% of the population by showing off a Hugo Boss label than one would any bespoke tailor.
Most people don't try to impress everyone. Some people try to impress their peers. Others just like to know that they have something someone else doesn't. Either or both of these could be true of clients of bespoke.
post #127 of 174
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(LA Guy) Alex, please do not construe my skepticism about the motivations of perhaps just a small fraction of your clientele as a personal attack on you or your work.
I don't. I take it as it is further evidence that when it comes to bespoke clothing, your lack of knowledge surfaces as childlike ignorance. I retract my statement that your theory is "hogwash". It is obvious that you honestly believe it, even though you are ... just ... wrong.
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It just seems naive to assume that all people who buy bespoke do so because they appreciate it's qualities rather than because of the branding
May I suggest that you log on to two fora, AskAndyAboutClothes.com and StyleForum.net? There, you will find many men who wear bespoke clothing spending hours upon hours discussing the merits of different methods of bespoke making. Read 10-15,000 of those posts. Then repeat your assertion that quality is not the overarching reason. The only naive aspect of your statement is your statement itself. You are ...just ... wrong.
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It is not a huge logical leap to say that the people who buy these brands would be attracted even more by exclusivity of a bespoke piece like a Fioravanti suit or a Kabbaz shirt.
That might be true and they can be attracted all they want. However, I can guarantee you they would not become my client because I wouldn't take them on. I think I know Bill well enough to assume he would react in exactly the same manner.
post #128 of 174
I agree partly with Alex and partly with LA Guy.  I agree with LA Guy that not ALL (read:  ALL) people who go bespoke do so because they appreciate the quality.  Some might do it to support local artisans.  Some might do it because they simply don't fit off the rack.  Some may do it because they like control over the styling process.  Some may do it because it makes them feel rich and/or important, even if bespoke triggers an emotion of self-esteem different from that which buying a Kiton suit would.  Some do it because that's just the way it is in their family (for example, I'm sure Prince Harry could give two cents about the merits of Savile Row handwork, but I'd venture that when he needs a nice suit, he calls up the tailors at A&S, et. al.).   That said, I agree with Alex that if people decide to go bespoke for reasons other than quality -- in particular, to express their wealth, status, and taste -- nearly all of those people will hesitate to say where they got their clothes.  I've definitely seen people flash an Armani label, but I've never seen anyone flash a bespoke label.  Hell, I've dodged questions like "I like your shirt, where did you get it," and I'm just wearing JANTZEN..  But that doesn't mean that the person wearing bespoke doesn't still feel some self-satisfaction type emotion.  One can in secret do things to mend psychological problems held inside -- "I feel more important because I wear a bespoke suit.  I don't need to tell anyone to feel more important.  Me knowing is enough." We are certainly complex enough creatures that the purchase or commission of an article of clothing -- or any tangible good -- is done for a myriad of reasons. The disagreement between LA Guy and Alex seems to be that LA Guy has been interpreted as making an "either/or" argument -- either you go bespoke because you appreciate quality, or you do it because it makes you feel self-important. But I read LA Guy as merely saying that some, if not most, bespoke clients do it for multiple reasons. Alex, don't you think that you have some not insignificant proporition of customers who commission a Kabbazz shirt 99% because they appreciate the quality and fit and personal attention, and 1% because they think it's pretty cool to have a Kabbazz shirt (even if they don't tell anybody)? The bespoke suit I'm having made -- would I have done it if I didn't appreciate the quality? Almost certainly not. Was I more likely to do it because I think it'd be cool to have a suit made by the man who makes suits for John Kerry (ducking tomatoes)? Yes. When discussing the suit with the tailor did I say, "And it's cool to have your label in the jacket pocket"? Yes I did. And did the tailor say, "That is pretty cool"? He did.
post #129 of 174
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Alex, don't you think that you have some not insignificant proporition of customers who commission a Kabbazz shirt 99% because they appreciate the quality and fit and personal attention, and 1% because they think it's pretty cool to have a Kabbazz shirt (even if they don't tell anybody)?
NO. Not even one. Not even 1%. Do I claim to know the motivations of each and every bespoke shirt client I have? Yes. Completely and absolutely. That is the responsibility of a true artisan. And you can sit there and stare at the computer in disbelief for as long as you wish. That is the way it is. And you are ... just ... wrong. Please. Stop repeating the same question over and over and over and over again. Ask someone else. Ask Manton. Ask Carlo. Ask Cusey. What the hell ... ask Marc. They will all tell you the same thing. True bespoke clients do NOT patronize a maker because wearing the maker's clothing is "cool".
post #130 of 174
Okay, okay. The "cool" part is an added bonus, and isn't "label oriented." Let me put it this way: When Joe (my tailor) is dead, I will feel privileged to turn over the lapels and know that his hands had created those dimples just for me. And that is cool. Don't you agree?
post #131 of 174
I would tend to agree with Alex on this one. Dallas is one of those towns where guys reveal their suitmaker (Armani, Brioni etc) before whipping out their paystub and tossing their --- on the table to measure against the other guys to impress the girls. Nobody says "I'm wearing a Kabbaz shirt, Vass Shoes etc". The guys who wear that level do so for themselves. An interesting thing came up at Sartorial Excellence in New York a few weeks ago. We invited Jill's best friend and her boyfriend from DC. George made the comment that he was surprised more guys were not 'dressed up'. Now he's a well to do executive. He was wearing a very nice Hickey Freeman suit, Allen Edmonds shoes and of course my shirt/tie. I pulled him aside and pointed out the bespoke shoes people were wearing, the perfect fit of the jackets etcetera and explained that there is a level well beyond 'couture' that most people are not aware of. I've gotten 'OOOOHs' from a stewardess hanging up my Brioni jacket and yawns from one hanging up the bespoke stuff that cost twice as much and was infinitely better. To paraphrase marc's comment earlier - bespoke shoes/shirt/suit doesn't get one ---- due to the prestige, it is more for the wearer. I just had to ask which shoes did accomplish that goal and he pointed out that only Blahniks and Choos do that.
post #132 of 174
Apologies and sympathies to Vass for being dragged through 14 pages they want no part of due to an untrue rumor. I feel your pain.
post #133 of 174
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True bespoke clients do NOT patronize a maker because wearing the maker's clothing is "cool".
The number of people who think that an AK shirt or Cleverley shoes or a Vincent Nicolosi suit is cool is vanishingly small, probably even smaller than the number of people who actually own any of these. I think that owning a pair of Cleverley shoes is cool, but I'm a weirdo. If ever I see a GQ or Esquire article praising Kabbaz as the trendy shirtmaker of the season, I'll know that Kabbaz has become the devil. Either that or someone is playing a nasty joke on him.
post #134 of 174
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Apologies and sympathies to Vass for being dragged through 14 pages they want no part of due to an untrue rumor.
So it's not true that Carlo Franco has scrapped the ties and the shirts and has decided to go into seven-fold thongs?
post #135 of 174
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So it's not true that Carlo Franco has scrapped the ties and the shirts and has decided to go into seven-fold thongs?
Now THAT is cool. LOL.
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