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post #31 of 45
Well beyond the natural tendencies of superfine cloth to wrinkle, crinkle, crumple, and generally render you a walking unmade bed during the course of the day, a major shortcoming of such cloth is the absence of what is known as "body" Superfine cloth might be light as a feather, airy as a souffle, but when you hold it, you instantly realize there's no there there, no substance, no body. You see, while technological advancement has brought us the ultra superfine cloth era, it really is not progress. When it comes to cloth, I'm a fervent Luddite. But, then again, I much favor the rich sound of a Stradivarius. One would be hard-pressed to grab hold of some "advanced" super 180 tissue paper cloth and then some wonderfully substantive, rich "old-fashioned" 13 oz, 11 oz, or even 10 oz worsted wool (Lesser please) and not much prefer the latter. Build a suit with such cloth, and you have a garment that will provide years of loyal, flattering service. Lastly, if a high-priced clothing salesman insults you with the silly "scrunch test" to demonstrate how their superfine cloth magically snaps back to form, I'd just scrunch my nose and walk out. They are sorely lacking in knowledge of the subtleties of cloth. Grayson
post #32 of 45
FWIW (not much) The best thing I have seen in a high super number is the 160's from Barbera. The price is more than double that of the already expensive 150's though the micronage is very close. The 160's utilize very long, very abrasion resistant and very elastic fibers that make up a very substantial and dense feeling cloth. Getting some is tough - they only have a limited supply (they buy all the wool that makes it), it takes a LONG time to produce and the who's who list fights over it. Some of the 180's-200's is beautiful but it would scare me - too easy to get pulls in it though I've seen some recently that seem a bit less gossamer like. The best statement on wool I've heard was from a guy I know who has spent decades in a top mill. He said "start with excellent wool and the 100's is excellent, start with a tiny micronage of sh.tty wool and you get superfine sh.t" ...indelicate but instructive. From talking with such folks at length I am convinced that the washing/resting/spinning has a lot more to do with quality than the micronage. You can make a tiny polyester filament, would not want to wear it though.
post #33 of 45
Quote:
Well beyond the natural tendencies of superfine cloth to wrinkle, crinkle, crumple, and generally render you a walking unmade bed during the course of the day, a major shortcoming of such cloth is the absence of what is known as "body"  Superfine cloth might be light as a feather, airy as a souffle, but when you hold it, you instantly realize there's no there there, no substance, no body.  You see, while technological advancement has brought us the ultra superfine cloth era, it really is not progress.  When it comes to cloth, I'm a fervent Luddite.  But, then again, I much favor the rich sound of a Stradivarius.  One would be hard-pressed to grab hold of some "advanced" super 180 tissue paper cloth and then some wonderfully substantive, rich "old-fashioned" 13 oz, 11 oz, or even 10 oz worsted wool (Lesser please) and not much prefer the latter.   Build a suit with such cloth, and you have a garment that will provide years of loyal, flattering service.  Lastly, if a high-priced clothing salesman insults you with the silly "scrunch test" to demonstrate how their superfine cloth magically snaps back to form, I'd just scrunch my nose and walk out.  They are sorely lacking in knowledge of the subtleties of cloth. Grayson
Comparing a Strad to cloth, now I've read it all. Bravo. koji
post #34 of 45
I was speaking with a prominent cloth merchant in London recently who was bemoaning the trend of ultra-fine cloth, but conceded that despite his, and his industry colleagues', aversion to it, they are forced to distribute such tissue paper as the marketplace requires they keep up with the times. The over-priced superfine stuff is marketed by the elite apparel firms as the best, and so customers respond. I don't mind one bit as it leaves that much more of the truly good cloth for me. Grayson
post #35 of 45
Why don't you talk to Raphael; you might be unpleasantly surprised by his take. koji
post #36 of 45
Actually, spoke with Raph just a few hours ago, to greet him on his return from vacation.  When I asked him his opinion of the superfine cloth, he just "scrunched" his face and dismissed it.  He's cutting some wonderful cloth from Lesser's and waxed enthusiastic about the beautiful, substantive feel of the cloth.  Actually, I derive my appreciation for good English cloth from Raphael, a true man of the cloth.  Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate Kiton's commitment to quality tailoring, just wish they'd relax their fixation on the ultra-fine stuff.  It's kind of getting ridiculous.  Simpler is better.   Grayson
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Actually, spoke with Raph just a few hours ago, to greet him on his return from vacation.  When I asked him his opinion of the superfine cloth, he just "scrunched" his face and dismissed it.  He's cutting some wonderful cloth from Lesser's and waxed enthusiastic about the beautiful, substantive feel of the cloth.  Actually, I derive my appreciation for good English cloth from Raphael, a true man of the cloth.  Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate Kiton's commitment to quality tailoring, just wish they'd relax their fixation on the ultra-fine stuff.  It's kind of getting ridiculous.  Simpler is better.   Grayson
How considerate of you to greet him upon his return. koji
post #38 of 45
Still, the fact remains, the newer ultrafine cloth, doesn't wrinkle. I've seen the guys from Kiton roll their suits into a ball with no effect. The lapel maintains the same roll, and cloth bounces back. Also, another thing is that Kiton wants their customer to fell as if he's not wearing a jacket when he's got one on. This is a matter of preferance. It doesn't make one "better" or "worse" than the other.
post #39 of 45
Quote:
I suspect that most SF members really don't have that much need or use for retail sales staff except at sale time-what they want is either a tailor or an EBay seller who has made a pricing mistake on Kiton. The absence of customers in Paul Stuart or even Bergdorf is remarkable, and I can't imagine how many are buying $4,000 RTW suits fully priced. If you're on commission, it's got to be a hard life.
Trust me, alot of people are paying upwards of $4K for a suit. The guy who buys a $4K suit, isn't the customer who shops on eBay or at Filean's Basement. I know alot of you guys on here buy Kiton or Brioni from eBay or on discount from somewhere else, however you are not a Kiton or Brioni customer. For them, it's about feel and quality. What they are looking for is the best quality RTW suit on the market, and will pay whatever it takes. Don't think that Kiton is loosing a sale because someone bought a Kiton on eBay for $1K. That customer would most likely never buy at full price. Many of you have admitted this here. Stores like BG may look empty only because you think a "full" store is something like Bloomingdales. For BG, a single customer can make it's day or week. I've heard of people dropping upwards of $100K in about two hours. This happens regularly. For a guy to go in and spend $3K is nothing. For a place like Macy's or Bloomingdales, which you perceive as "full," it would take on average probably a dozen customers to spend $3K.
post #40 of 45
Quote:
  Stores like BG may look empty only because you think a "full" store is something like Bloomingdales. For BG, a single customer can make it's day or week. I've heard of people dropping upwards of $100K in about two hours.
It is shocking how often this happens. I witnessed a friend pay in cash (out of a backpack.) for what seemed an entire new wardrobe. My girlfriend of the time and I stood completely dumbfounded for an hour while this was going on. He had it all sent to him, and we went off to lunch. We laughed about the whole experience, but he didn't think twice at all about paying that much. It was surreal.
post #41 of 45
Quote:
(Grayson) a true man of the cloth.
That is your second strike. Be wise.
post #42 of 45
I'm stuck in the middle ground. I'm kind of wary of most Supers fabrics. Scrunch tests are good and all, but when you're sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day, you'll be doing a lot more to the fabric than simply "scrunching" it for a moment or two. I have a pair of 12-oz flannel trousers that I can toss around, never put on a hanger, and when I wear them the next day they still look great. But what Carlo said is still true. I've seen bad Supers fabrics and I've seen good ones. The good ones tend to wrinkle less than the bad ones. The weaving and the fiber lengths play a huge part in the cloth's quality, and if Kiton's able to source from the best, then I don't see why Kiton's fabric should be able to resist wrinkles better than most other Supers fabrics. I'm not going so far to say that it's absolutely wrinkle-proof. Cloth is pliable; it's able to wrinkle or crease. If I were asked to try on that Kiton jacket, you could be sure I would put it through its paces. Still, I'd much rather wear Super 150's in the summer. Wrinkles be damned. I'd choose wrinkles over sweat any day.
post #43 of 45
Note on the superduper supers.... One bad drycleaning.
post #44 of 45
Quote:
Well beyond the natural tendencies of superfine cloth to wrinkle, crinkle, crumple, and generally render you a walking unmade bed during the course of the day, a major shortcoming of such cloth is the absence of what is known as "body"  Superfine cloth might be light as a feather, airy as a souffle, but when you hold it, you instantly realize there's no there there, no substance, no body.  You see, while technological advancement has brought us the ultra superfine cloth era, it really is not progress.  When it comes to cloth, I'm a fervent Luddite.  But, then again, I much favor the rich sound of a Stradivarius.  One would be hard-pressed to grab hold of some "advanced" super 180 tissue paper cloth and then some wonderfully substantive, rich "old-fashioned" 13 oz, 11 oz, or even 10 oz worsted wool (Lesser please) and not much prefer the latter.   Build a suit with such cloth, and you have a garment that will provide years of loyal, flattering service.  Lastly, if a high-priced clothing salesman insults you with the silly "scrunch test" to demonstrate how their superfine cloth magically snaps back to form, I'd just scrunch my nose and walk out.  They are sorely lacking in knowledge of the subtleties of cloth. Grayson
I have one of those "superduper" Kiton suits and I find that the 'wrinkling' problem being a bit overstated. I once wore it from 7am to 1:30am, from meetings, to labwork (sans coat), to dinner and dicusssions... and I did not find that it wrinked any worse than other suits. The worst thing that happened to it was that the sleevehead stitching on one sleeve became too loose... I sent the jacket back to Kiton, and they quickly repaired the problem and sent it back to me by 24hour courier service. They said that the looseness was due to the fact that they do not stitch all seams with equal tension, leaving some areas a bit slack for the suit to mould properly to the body. As for lacking body, yes, I would agree that these cloths tend to lack the "weight" of the heavier fabrics, but they do make up for it with a certain 'flow' and ease/comfort of wear.
post #45 of 45
Quote:
Still, I'd much rather wear Super 150's in the summer. Wrinkles be damned. I'd choose wrinkles over sweat any day.
Keep in mind that weight and Super (or micron) numbers are two different things.  Theoretically at least, Supers can be of any weight.  Mills tend to make far more lengths of lightweight supers because that's what sells, and also because it is much easier to make a heavier cloth with a soft hand than a lightweight cloth with a soft hand.  The Supers I described in my earlier post actually had considerable heft.  They were not those Italian zephyrs that most people think of when they hear "Super." If you want a lightweight wool that resists wrinkles, consider either some of the "high twist" stuff.  It's a "techno" fabric, sort of, but the Super number is either low or non-existent.  It has a very "dry" and "crisp" hand.  If you're looking for butter softness, it's not for you.  But it's cool and very wrinkle resistant.  Another great book is the Lesser "Superfine Trpocals", 8/9 ounce wool.  Also very dry.  The Super number is something like 90, I think; not that they advertise the fact.  Also very cool, and very wrinkle resistant.
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