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post #511 of 962
ok, here's my question for a fitness model. over the past 2 months i have been following a 3 day split with 1 day of rest and increasing my calorie intake (healthily) and so far have managed to put on 13 lbs without increasing my body fat, although i know once i'm done bulking i know i'll prob need to drop 5-7 lbs to get the abdominal definition i want. i want to continue this bulking cycle until probably the end of april (hopefully 10-12 more lbs), but i'd like to start doing some running to increase my endurance during this. if i'm using nike+ to track my runs and the calories burned, when is the best time to run to limit the amount of calories burned and the increase in my metabolism, and should i be taking in the extra calories before or after i run?
post #512 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouschris View Post
another question....

i seem to bulk up really fast when i start lifting and have changed my workout routine to use less weights, but more body weight and core type exercises. that being said, i still have a hard time flattening out my chest. my body naturally is inclined to be the bigger body building type physique, but i'm trying to be less bulky. is more cardio my only solution?

no, you can also eat less calories.

If you were bulking up "really fast" once you started lifting, then you were eating too many calories. If you create a caloric deficit and still lift heavy, your body will not bulk up really fast beyond "the newbie gains"
post #513 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by js4design View Post
ok, here's my question for a fitness model. over the past 2 months i have been following a 3 day split with 1 day of rest and increasing my calorie intake (healthily) and so far have managed to put on 13 lbs without increasing my body fat, although i know once i'm done bulking i know i'll prob need to drop 5-7 lbs to get the abdominal definition i want. i want to continue this bulking cycle until probably the end of april (hopefully 10-12 more lbs), but i'd like to start doing some running to increase my endurance during this. if i'm using nike+ to track my runs and the calories burned, when is the best time to run to limit the amount of calories burned and the increase in my metabolism, and should i be taking in the extra calories before or after i run?

I would just run a 5K (so ~30 minutes) and see where that takes you. If you find you're having a hard time bulking up (the rate slows down), then just eat more.

If you're going to eat, eat after the run. Much more pleasant than eating a big meal before the run.
post #514 of 962
I thought I would pop my current routine in here for comment 3 day split probably going to the gym 4 times per week and play 5 a side football one night. I try to lift as heavy as I can to a max of 8 and a min of 6. Sunday - Chest and Tris 3x8 bench 3 x 8 incline bench (dumbell) 3 x 8 dumbell fly 3 x 8 overhead tri extension 3 x 8 cable extension (pull down) 3 x 8 dips (weighted) Monday - Rest Tuesday - 5 a side football (1 hour) Wenesday Rest Thursday - Shoulders and Legs 3x8 Squats 3x8 Deadlifts 3X8 leg extensions 3x8 shoulder press 3x8 upright row 3x8 front or side raise (dumbell) Friday - Rest Saturday - Back and Bi's 3x8 pulldown 3x8 seated row 3x8 dumbell pullover 3x8 curls (dumbell) 3x8 reverse curls (barbell) super set with 3x8 reverse curls (barbell) 3x8 preacher curl Diet wise I am consuming 2 weight gainer shakes during the day and one post work out protein shake. Plus eating reasonably healthily (avoiding junk food, soft drink and sweets) but given my work situation I find it hard to eat as much as required. Typical day would be 1 bowl museli and banana 2 x chicken baguettes apple sausage roll 2 pieces of toast with peanut butter 300g chicken breast and vegetables / or steak and vegetables 2 pieces of toast with lite cream cheese I am currently 5'11 170lb, not quite as lean as I want to be. I have a hard time putting on size, but seem to get stronger without seeing massive difference in my physique. I would like to add muscle/gain some size so that I am roughly 180lb -190 fairly lean. What are your thoughts on how I am going about this?
post #515 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by js4design View Post
over the past 2 months i have been following a 3 day split with 1 day of rest and increasing my calorie intake (healthily) and so far have managed to put on 13 lbs without increasing my body fat...

What stack did you use? Deca+Dbol?
post #516 of 962
Interesting, I've heard it is comparable to ON 100%, which is why I just ordered 20 pounds. Really though, 20 pounds of a whey blend for 100 bucks, can't beat that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taktikz View Post
AllTheWhey protein is disgusting. I had to give away 10lb tub of whey...
post #517 of 962
it is the best all-time stack IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
What stack did you use? Deca+Dbol?
post #518 of 962
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouschris View Post
Noir - Thank you for creating this thread.

I am also 5'10 and have always been relatively active. In HS I weighed 165lbs at 5'10. When I was in college I got into a really unhealthy routine and weighed as much as 215 lbs, but immediately worked out and ate healthy to bring my weight back down to the 185lbs level.

I now workout and play sports on a regular basis (at least 4+ times a week) and while I would say I'm relatively fit, would like to bring my weight back down to 170lbs. It seems like I've plateaued at my weight hovering between 180lbs and 190lbs depending on how active I am and what type of exercises I do. What would you suggest as the most efficient weigh to break out of this plateau and move back down to the 170's.

Thanks in advance.

If you're after just looking better in the mirror with no mind to the scale, I would suggest incorporating weight training into your routine. However, you'll gain muscle so if your goal is simply to reach a target weight, monitoring your diet or doing something crossfit-esque (*gag*) may be a better bet.

IMO don't be afraid of gaining some muscle/adding "weight" above 170 if you'll look more aesthetically pleasing by the end of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by constantine. View Post
Noir -
Here's a question I've been thinking about, as I'm about to shake up my workout routine for the spring. Can I transform my body with just cardio, and pushups, pullups, dips, situps and hanging leg raises? I like the idea of using my own body weight in exercises like pull-ups and dips. I'm not looking to get huge, or even big for that matter. More definition is the goal. Thanks.

It takes years to get huge, don't worry about it. I haven't talked to a single guy who said "damn, i woke up this morning and was just too jacked." Yes you can make changes with cardio + bw only exercises. With that said, I don't particularly like the look. Also, it depends on your starting point as to how much you'll "transform" so to speak. A heavier set person will make a more noticeable change than someone skinny-fat or just plain skinny for example. Diet will also be key. I'm not sure on how bodyweight exercises will compare with heavy weights wrt glycogen depletion etc., but my guess is you won't be able to get away with as much.

I understand that you like the idea of doing bodyweight only, but again I'm skeptical of having an admirable physique using only bodyweight. One VERY notable exception is gymnasts; however, most people don't have the time to dedicate that these guys do. They look absolutely spectacular though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertorex View Post
You won't get big or huge unless you eat towards that goal. And if your bodyweight is light to begin with, bodyweight exercises won't nearly have as much benefit as a good 5x5 program.

You definitely should let your eating reflect where you want to be. (Gain muscle? eat more than you have been. Lose fat? eat less.) Of course I'll argue that where the calories come from and how much relative to what you use now matter, others will disagree, but the basic calories in calories out is pretty standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
eat fewer calories. Sub out the high calorie foods in your diet (like the easy carbs) with broccoli, so you can eat less and still feel full.

seriously, that's all there is to it.

Small changes like this can make a big difference. Particularly in the evenings {which really sucks because that's when I get the munchies}. I wouldn't say that's all there is to it, but it's certainly a giant leap in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
More definition means losing the body fat around the muscle. Muscles themselves can't get more "defined" they can only get bigger or smaller.

since they can only get bigger or smaller, while you are dieting (since you're trying to eliminate body fat to gain more definition), it makes sense to try to get them as big as possible. They may not grow because you're not feeding it excess calories, but at least you're doing your best to prevent them from going smaller.

For this reason, diet + 5x5 program is the best thing for you if you want more definition.

The program you want to do is for someone with different goals- more endurance, more long-term sustainable energy. Maybe a rock climber, or a skier, for instance.

A few things I don't entirely agree with (mostly in the use of superlatives), but yes I would think weight training would help him. I advocate 6 exercises in 2-3x10 a lot for beginners as well, often in some sort of circuit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouschris View Post
maybe i'm not dedicated enough, but i've worked on different diets and it doesn't seem to change my weight that much. but i'll try to do without the easy carbs this coming month and replacing it with carrots/broccoli etc and see what comes of it.

Good luck. Try and write everything down. Online journals are fine, but the old pen and paper works better for something like this because EVERY time eat ANYTHING you can write it down then and there. A lot of times people write down their meals but exclude their snacks (i.e. lunch meat or bread when making your kid's sandwich, the 1/2 bag of chips your coworker gives you, the coffee with 4 sugar cubes + cream + donut at the morning meeting, etc.). Tally it up. Also, if you remember you have to write it down you can sometimes "stay away." :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouschris View Post
another question....

i seem to bulk up really fast when i start lifting and have changed my workout routine to use less weights, but more body weight and core type exercises. that being said, i still have a hard time flattening out my chest. my body naturally is inclined to be the bigger body building type physique, but i'm trying to be less bulky. is more cardio my only solution?

refer to my above quote. Cardio isn't your only solution, however, here's a suggestion. Since you're trying to be less bulky, why not simply go on a diet until your in the low-teens or below (8-12%) wrt bodyfat and see how it goes from there. The calorie restriction should make it so putting on excess muscle is difficult/impossible, and you'll get the added benefit of lower bodyfat. With diet on point some cardio is useful but not wholly necessary. If you're already sporting a six pack and striations on your chest/delts and STILL have too much muscle, hit me up so I can get some advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by js4design View Post
ok, here's my question for a fitness model. over the past 2 months i have been following a 3 day split with 1 day of rest and increasing my calorie intake (healthily) and so far have managed to put on 13 lbs without increasing my body fat, although i know once i'm done bulking i know i'll prob need to drop 5-7 lbs to get the abdominal definition i want. i want to continue this bulking cycle until probably the end of april (hopefully 10-12 more lbs), but i'd like to start doing some running to increase my endurance during this. if i'm using nike+ to track my runs and the calories burned, when is the best time to run to limit the amount of calories burned and the increase in my metabolism, and should i be taking in the extra calories before or after i run?

I'm not sure what using nike+ has to do with this, but anyway :-P

First: a few things to be aware of.
13 lbs muscle w/ no or even decrease in bodyfat is possible if typically (a) you're a beginner, or (b) pharmaceuticals. If these don't apply, be wary because it's difficult to tell a difference between say 14-15 to 16-18% bodyfat. Beginner gains can come in many flavors though, and this would be my first guess. Enjoy it while it lasts, because it doesn't last long.

Now, onto your question. Running for endurance is a little easier to deal with than running to cut bodyfat because you want to run on full glycogen stores and keep them up instead of after depleting them. I'm not huge into the whole endurance thing, so I encourage someone with more experience here step in. My guess though is that the timing won't have a huge impact on metabolism. I believe the optimal time for weight training is about 4 hours after you first wake up - I'll assume (and perhaps incorrectly), that this is the same for endurance too.

To answer the second part of your question, yes I believe you will need to incorporate additional kcals if you're increasing activity level, particularly if you're on a bulk. Depending on how far and how you feel on your runs, you may not need them before but I would absolutely advise taking both carbohydrates and protein in afterwards. Also, since it's for endurance make the run after you have a couple of carb meals in you. I wouldn't worry about gels or blocks unless you're running more than say an hour -1.5h+ at a time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m_wave View Post
I thought I would pop my current routine in here for comment

3 day split probably going to the gym 4 times per week and play 5 a side football one night. I try to lift as heavy as I can to a max of 8 and a min of 6.

Sunday - Chest and Tris

3x8 bench
3 x 8 incline bench (dumbell)
perhaps add a decline here. Also you may want to alter db/bb's w/ 1 & 2 if you feel stagnant. Not a huge change or maybe not even beneficial at all, but who knows. Mentality changes. Flipflop incline & flat one day and see how you feel as well.
3 x 8 dumbell fly

3 x 8 dips (weighted) <- moved up. You should be able to do more weight if it's earlier, and I like this exercise for mass
3 x 8 overhead tri extension single or double?
3 x 8 cable extension (pushdown) v-, straight-bar, or rope? mix it up, but ropes seem to work well as a finisher

I don't see skull crushers. Heavy skulls are a nice blitz for triceps and pack on size quite nicely


Monday - Rest
Tuesday - 5 a side football (1 hour)
Wenesday Rest
Thursday - Shoulders and Legs

3x8 Squats
3x8 Deadlifts
3X8 leg extensions

lunges, bulgarian split squats, etc. etc. Some people also have luck with more volume work on legs (up to 20 reps for example on squats). I didn't personally have much luck with doing it that way, but I've spoken with enough who have that I felt it worth mentioning. Also - SLDLs? You can mix these up with dumbbells and/or adding a box to raise yourself up and get more of a stretch @ the bottom of the movement. Be careful of course as always.

3x8 shoulder press if you're using db's switch to BB or vice-versa and see if it helps. Can do arnold presses here every now and again if you like them
3x8 upright row
3x8 front or side raise (dumbell)
front and side raises shouldn't be substitutes. I would argue that upright rows and front raises are more easily swappable.

Friday - Rest
Saturday - Back and Bi's

3x8 pulldown pullups if possible. My back development changed quite a lot from this seemingly minor change. If you don't have an assisted machine keep doing WIDE GRIP until you can do proper pullups.
3x8 seated row
3x8 dumbell pullover [b]This shouldn't be on back day if we're thinking of the same exercise. Pullovers should work your chest.[b]

consider adding deadlifts or bentover rows (db or bb) Both are wonderful mass builders. I typcially do SLDL on leg days and standard or RDL on back days. I've never been a fan of sumo but I guess it would work here too.

3x8 curls (dumbell) I find barbell is better for pure bicep mass. Genetically I don't have an issue with peak though so YMMV
3x8 reverse curls (barbell) super set with 3x8 reverse curls (barbell) may just be me but I've always found these to be particularly awkward movements. Also they seem more forearm focused. Try swapping in seated or standing hammer curls here and see if you like?
3x8 preacher curl

Diet wise I am consuming 2 weight gainer shakes during the day and one post work out protein shake. what is the difference in your weight gainer & PWO shake? Plus eating reasonably healthily (avoiding junk food, soft drink and sweets) but given my work situation I find it hard to eat as much as required.

Typical day would be

1 bowl museli and banana
2 x chicken baguettes
apple
sausage roll
2 pieces of toast with peanut butter
300g chicken breast and vegetables / or steak and vegetables
2 pieces of toast with lite cream cheese

this is all your eating? problem solved... Tupperware is your friend. Tally your totals. The weight gainers probably help but I'm a big fan of real food in conjunction with supps, not supps in conjunction with real food if that makes sense. (i.e. the majority of your nutrition should be in the form of solid foods)

Cook. If you can't cook, learn. Make food for a few days or a week at a time, put it in the fridge/freezer, and microwave as necessary. Yes it's a pain. Yes you should do it anyway.


I am currently 5'11 170lb, not quite as lean as I want to be. I have a hard time putting on size, but seem to get stronger without seeing massive difference in my physique. I would like to add muscle/gain some size so that I am roughly 180lb -190 fairly lean. What are your thoughts on how I am going about this?

comments in bold

A few broad-scoping things:
Play with your rep ranges. Try 6 or try 10 for a few weeks and see if anything changes. Your diet needs a bit of work (mainly need to eat more kcals if you aren't gaining any weight). Workout isn't as bad as I initially feared but could use some touchups. Minor issue but something I noticed because I did this myself is there is no real exercise for rear delts. Several months ago I noticed mine were grossly lacking so I spent a while bringing them back up to par. It's small so not a huge issue right now for you while you're bringing everyrthing up & not fully leaned out, but it's definitely a sexy muscle. Again, tally food and see exactly how much you're eating. Alter accordingly.

Hope this helps.
post #519 of 962
Thread Starter 
A bit behind but here's the beginning of how I'll do my diet. I don't have anything pressing diet-related coming up so I'll take it easy and have a treat or a drink every now and then if I feel like it so long as I still see myself progressing.

I had written out more detail but firefox decided to crash. The inner workings and mechanics are on page 2 of this thread I believe. I'll update this post as I get further along into High & low days, and off days (exactly like low days but the carb sources may change).

Of note:
I do eat vegetables, even though I didn't include them here. They go with the protein/fat meals, and it's usually spinach, broccoli, or occasionally green beans. I have a wacked out sleep schedule right now so that explains the timings where I'm just trying to compensate for it. (sleep from 9-3, then from 6-9/10. Very odd considering I've been running on 4-6 hours for the last two months.)

It's boring as hell but there's room for spices and some condiments (not worried about sodium atm). As it moves along it will more reflect my personal tastes as well so that should be taken into consideration. I use a spreadsheet with exchanges so if something seems particularly unappetizing I can click the dropdown and find an alternative.

post #520 of 962
Your diet is about as boring as my diet LOL. I eat mostly the same things but instead of cheese I eat nuts (or just the oil my veg are cooked in) and eat more oatmeal instead of rice. I've discovered oatmeal cooked in chicken stock and soy sauce is a good alternative to rice.
post #521 of 962
Thread Starter 
i eat nuts too, i just didn't bother putting the exchanges for everything. I will once I move it along further.
post #522 of 962
I've been getting back into lifting and for about six weeks I've been doing a 5x5 consisting of DL, Squat, Pullups, Bench, Military Press, and Dips. I have beend doing that workout about 3 times (sometimes 4) per week and doing HIIT twice a week and 1 "regular" cardio day (45mins).

Given that my goals are 1) Fat loss, 2) Regain Strength, 3) Preserve Lean mass

I'm probably not getting enough consistent protien in my diet, probably around 150-175 grams/day. But i have lowered my calorie intake to around 2200-2500 per day (Probably around 2000 on days I dont go to the gym). I am 5'10'' 240, BF I would guess around 28-30%).

I am probably past my "newbie gains" at this point, having lost only about 5lbs in the last six weeks. Is it possible that I have gained 5-6 lbs of muscle considering that I have started squatting again for the first time in about 3 years and have started to Deadlift for the first time ever?

At any rate what should the plan be from here? Should I stay with the 5x5 for another 6 weeks or should I change plans and if so, to what? (maybe a 5 day body part split?) I have enough time that I can be at the gym 6 days/week sometimes 7.
post #523 of 962
Thread Starter 
answers in bold. I focused on fat loss because it was goal (1). For strength you're going to want longer rest periods I would imagine. Get yourself to a healthy bf level and then work on strength again in my humble opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLantern View Post
I've been getting back into lifting and for about six weeks I've been doing a 5x5 consisting of DL, Squat, Pullups, Bench, Military Press, and Dips. I have beend doing that workout about 3 times (sometimes 4) per week and doing HIIT twice a week and 1 "regular" cardio day (45mins).

glad you're back with it. I don't like the order of the workout though. actually i just don't like squats and DLs right next to each other - 5x5s are usually strength focused and I feel like you're shorting yourself.

Given that my goals are 1) Fat loss, 2) Regain Strength, 3) Preserve Lean mass

hiit is good but if preserving lean mass is a primary concern you may want to consider doing more "regular" cardio sessions. maybe 1 hiit/week to get the heart rate up. if this isn't an issue then keep on truckin'.

I'm probably not getting enough consistent protien in my diet, probably around 150-175 grams/day. But i have lowered my calorie intake to around 2200-2500 per day (Probably around 2000 on days I dont go to the gym). I am 5'10'' 240, BF I would guess around 28-30%).

definitely need more protein. previous page has me at around 250g & a similar caloric intake. at least 1g/lb imho.

I am probably past my "newbie gains" at this point, having lost only about 5lbs in the last six weeks. Is it possible that I have gained 5-6 lbs of muscle considering that I have started squatting again for the first time in about 3 years and have started to Deadlift for the first time ever?

possible but unlikely. even if you are gaining appreciable muscle, at 28-30% bf you should certainly be able to lose a couple pounds/week regardless. 2.5 lbs/week is a pretty standard guideline. Again it may be a diet issue. Post it and we'll have a quick look through. To be completely frank if you're losing less than 1 lb/week you should re-evaluate (note: over a 6 week span. if it's just an off week don't sweat it.).

At any rate what should the plan be from here? Should I stay with the 5x5 for another 6 weeks or should I change plans and if so, to what? (maybe a 5 day body part split?) I have enough time that I can be at the gym 6 days/week sometimes 7.

full body with short rests in a circuit style I think are preferable for fat loss to splits unless the person is already in fairly impressive shape. I don't personally swear by 5x5s but they're not bad programs and many people do.
post #524 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir. View Post
answers in bold. I focused on fat loss because it was goal (1). For strength you're going to want longer rest periods I would imagine. Get yourself to a healthy bf level and then work on strength again in my humble opinion.


I've been getting back into lifting and for about six weeks I've been doing a 5x5 consisting of DL, Squat, Pullups, Bench, Military Press, and Dips. I have been doing that workout about 3 times (sometimes 4) per week and doing HIIT twice a week and 1 "regular" cardio day (45mins).

glad you're back with it. I don't like the order of the workout though. actually i just don't like squats and DLs right next to each other - 5x5s are usually strength focused and I feel like you're shorting yourself. Sorry, to clarify I don't do Squats and DL on the same day. Its either/or.

Given that my goals are 1) Fat loss, 2) Regain Strength, 3) Preserve Lean mass

hiit is good but if preserving lean mass is a primary concern you may want to consider doing more "regular" cardio sessions. maybe 1 hiit/week to get the heart rate up. if this isn't an issue then keep on truckin'. It was my understanding that HIIT was better at preserving lean mass? I like the feeling that I get (ability to recover) from doing sprints plus I feel like it hits parts of my lower body that squats and DL dont touch. But I'll up the normal cardio and keep HIIT to 2x per week unless that starts to burn me out.

I'm probably not getting enough consistent protien in my diet, probably around 150-175 grams/day. But i have lowered my calorie intake to around 2200-2500 per day (Probably around 2000 on days I dont go to the gym). I am 5'10'' 240, BF I would guess around 28-30%).

definitely need more protein. previous page has me at around 250g & a similar caloric intake. at least 1g/lb imho. Right. Got to get a costco card and start stocking up on some meat.

I am probably past my "newbie gains" at this point, having lost only about 5lbs in the last six weeks. Is it possible that I have gained 5-6 lbs of muscle considering that I have started squatting again for the first time in about 3 years and have started to Deadlift for the first time ever?

possible but unlikely. even if you are gaining appreciable muscle, at 28-30% bf you should certainly be able to lose a couple pounds/week regardless. 2.5 lbs/week is a pretty standard guideline. Again it may be a diet issue. Post it and we'll have a quick look through. To be completely frank if you're losing less than 1 lb/week you should re-evaluate (note: over a 6 week span. if it's just an off week don't sweat it.). Yeah probably just wishful thinking on my part. I have noticed an increase in the size of my back (added about 1.5 inches to my chest measurement) since starting the program though. I figure I should be losing about 2lb/wk if I keep my calories to the above. I do well most of the time but the GF eats out ALL the time and I need to do put my foot down on that.

At any rate what should the plan be from here? Should I stay with the 5x5 for another 6 weeks or should I change plans and if so, to what? (maybe a 5 day body part split?) I have enough time that I can be at the gym 6 days/week sometimes 7.

full body with short rests in a circuit style I think are preferable for fat loss to splits unless the person is already in fairly impressive shape. I don't personally swear by 5x5s but they're not bad programs and many people do. Thanks for all the info!
post #525 of 962
Your calorie intake is too high. 45 minutes of cardio for most people is going to be what, maybe 600 calories? Your HIIT days probably burn maybe 250ish and 5x5s barely use any energy at all.
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