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post #121 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir. View Post
How old are you? It's tough to tell a carb cycle for a single day's diet. I'm assuming you're working out between breakfast & AM snack with the snack being PWO. (assuming you're going by the method 2. I've outlined which seems to be the case. If you're doing depletion & refeed a la (1.) or what kunk mentioned doing, the carb intake is too high).

A few things that kind of jump out at me, though aren't a huge deal unless you're a bit anal and getting down to the nitty gritty (i.e. won't matter much unless you're sub 8 or 9% already).

1. apple at lunch. Fructose restores liver glycogen and primes your body to use glycogen as fuel. So it's great pre-workout, but afterwards you're going to want to use fat as fuel. On cardio-only days, a few g of BCAA + green tea & some light cardio on an empty stomach has seemed to work well in the past. I wouldn't do HIIT on an empty stomach though if that's your preference.

2. Roma tomato @ dinner. tomatoes are great sources of minerals and vitamins (especially cooked), but I would prefer them in the meal after PWO.

3. 70g of protein in a sitting may be overkill. You'll digest it eventually but I don't know if having that much in one sitting is necessary at your weight.

4. Carbs are perhaps a little on the low side, though if you seem to be more carb sensitive I can understand.

5. Not sure if the whey powder is necessary right before bed. It certainly won't hurt you, but if you like cottage cheese you can just have more of that instead. I don't like cottage so I take a blended powder before sleep most of the time.

6. check where the fats in the dressing are coming from. Good fats are great. Bad fats (trans fats, anything "partially hydrogenated", etc.) aren't.

I just took a quick browse through it and didn't pay a whole lot of attention tbh. I didn't see any fats from fish or flax which are great for general health, joints, and to some degree fat loss. Throw some almonds in place of the TJs PB at night on occasion.

With that said it's certainly not bad and if you stick with it you're miles ahead of most people who eat 1 or 2 fast food meals a day. How long have you been doing this and how has it been working for you thus far? Results speak more than theory.


This is basically a rough draft of a type 2 cycle, a sample of what I could eat in a moderate carb day. I'm 27. And I am pretty carb sensitive.

I started eating clean back in June of last year and went from 210 to 170 (and from a 38 to a 33.5" waist) by December.

I eat lean protein (turkey, chicken, fish, <10% fat beef & venison, eggs, fat free dairy) "good" fats (olive oil, nuts, avocado), lots of fibrous green veggies, and "good" carbs & whole grains (oats for breakfast, homemade whole grain bread, brown rice, quinoa, WG pitas/tortillas, beans).

I avoid HFCS and added sugars like the plague.

An average day could look something like this:

Breakfast: 3 eggs, 1pc WG toast lightly buttered, protein shake w/ 1 scoop & water
AM PWO Snack: 12 almonds, 1 apple, protein shake w/ 1 scoop & water
Lunch: 1 6oz grilled checken breast w/ English mustard (sugar free)
PM Snack: 1 can tuna, 1tbs mayo, 1 pc string cheese
Dinner: 6-8oz salmon/chicken/beef and 1 cup asparagus/sauteed veggies/spinach salad
Snack: 2tbs nat PB, 1 cup skim cottage cheese

I did HIIT running and did HGM phases 1&2, then switched to rowing/HIIT cycling & stronglifts 5x5 for my workout about 2 months ago.


I've leaned out a lot from 210. But I'm prob still at around 18-22% BF based on the caliper I have. I want to lean out more, and get in the 12-15 range but haven't been budging on the scale or (seemingly to me) the way I look. I know the scale isn't the best indicator.

I doubt that my current diet is even enough calories for me to keep burning fat. I figured I'd give carb cycling a try to see if it works. I just don't want to have to obsess about my diet to see progress. I eat a lot of the same foods day after day.
post #122 of 962
Thread Starter 
Congrats so far. To be completely honest, I don't know if you're lean enough just yet to use the type 2, and a ketogenic may be more your style. A generally healthy diet can get most people low enough to start carb manipulation. My general rule is that you're lean enough f you can flex and see your top 2 or top 4 abs. I've added thoughts in bold in the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscogooner View Post
This is basically a rough draft of a type 2 cycle, a sample of what I could eat in a moderate carb day. I'm 27. And I am pretty carb sensitive.

I started eating clean back in June of last year and went from 210 to 170 (and from a 38 to a 33.5" waist) by December.

I eat lean protein (turkey, chicken, fish, <10% fat beef & venison, eggs, fat free dairy) "good" fats (olive oil, nuts, avocado), lots of fibrous green veggies, and "good" carbs & whole grains (oats for breakfast, homemade whole grain bread, brown rice, quinoa, WG pitas/tortillas, beans).

I avoid HFCS and added sugars like the plague. good

An average day could look something like this:

Breakfast: 3 eggs, 1pc WG toast lightly buttered, protein shake w/ 1 scoop & water
AM PWO Snack: 12 almonds, 1 apple, protein shake w/ 1 scoop & water almonds will slow digestion, not ideal post workout. I mentioned fruit earlier --> move it to breakfast
Lunch: 1 6oz grilled checken breast w/ English mustard (sugar free) if you're eating enough carbs to stay out of ketosis, you'll probably want at least some here.
PM Snack: 1 can tuna, 1tbs mayo, 1 pc string cheese haven't looked into mayo because I hate the stuff. Use your own judgement and don't be excessive with it and I think it will be alright.
Dinner: 6-8oz salmon/chicken/beef and 1 cup asparagus/sauteed veggies/spinach salad throw in some fats on days you don't have fish.
Snack: 2tbs nat PB, 1 cup skim cottage cheese almonds are great at night too, swap with PB a few times/week.

I did HIIT running and did HGM phases 1&2, then switched to rowing/HIIT cycling & stronglifts 5x5 for my workout about 2 months ago. Put on significant muscle while losing the weight? if not, cals may be a bit low. <3 beginner gains.


I've leaned out a lot from 210. But I'm prob still at around 18-22% BF based on the caliper I have. I want to lean out more, and get in the 12-15 range but haven't been budging on the scale or (seemingly to me) the way I look. I know the scale isn't the best indicator. I've hit on this above.

I doubt that my current diet is even enough calories for me to keep burning fat. I figured I'd give carb cycling a try to see if it works. I just don't want to have to obsess about my diet to see progress. I eat a lot of the same foods day after day.

here's what I just ran and came out with. I lowered carb sensitivity from v. high to moderate (in doing so you get the remainder of the calories from fats instead of carbs). You'll want to play with it and maybe raise cals if you haven't put on any muscle since you've started working out. It's easier to build then cut than to cut first (more muscle = more calories used), but I always recommend leaning up if you're carrying significantly too much bodyfat.

post #123 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir. View Post
Congrats so far. To be completely honest, I don't know if you're lean enough just yet to use the type 2, and a ketogenic may be more your style. A generally healthy diet can get most people low enough to start carb manipulation. My general rule is that you're lean enough f you can flex and see your top 2 or top 4 abs. I've added thoughts in bold in the quote:



here's what I just ran and came out with. I lowered carb sensitivity from v. high to moderate (in doing so you get the remainder of the calories from fats instead of carbs). You'll want to play with it and maybe raise cals if you haven't put on any muscle since you've started working out. It's easier to build then cut than to cut first (more muscle = more calories used), but I always recommend leaning up if you're carrying significantly too much bodyfat.


I'm not opposed to doing a type 1/ketogenic cycle. I don't crave carbs most days.

I can see my top 4 abs when flexing, are you saying I could do the type 2 if this is the case? Or that I'm lean enough already?

I had a decent amount of muscle on me before I started lifting regularly, I've always had a decent amount of muscle (legs & arms) but was fat because I ate like shit and was an alcoholic. strength gains are slower these days but are still happening. I tend to think I'm muscular enough and don't want to get/be huge. I look pretty lean now but I have some flab on my lower abs & and inner thighs which is common I hear for guys who lose a lot of fat.

losing 40 pounds and adding a bunch of muscle in 7 months is pretty decent progress and I'm really happy with it. But I'd like to get leaner. Not 5-8% range because it's not worth it to me to maintain it long-term, but 12-15, I'd be totally happy with that.
post #124 of 962
Thread Starter 
I'm saying you're probably lower than 18-22% bf if you can see abs when flexing (abs, not lines after you stand up after sitting down for a while). But yeah, if you can see them when you flex you're probably lean enough. I'm probably 12% or so right now in those shots i put up -- not dry mind you or 12% looks a lot lower. at roughly 10% for most people you can see an outline of all of your abs without flexing.

No one really gets big overnight. I've been trying to put on more for a while now. Gains are a helluva lot slower because I have to moderate diet more. Not so much for fat gain, but when switching from an "it doesn't matter" to a "get it on point to do this by that day" diet, it's miserable so I just keep it maybe 80-85% clean these days and go from there.

Getting in the really low range is hard and unless you're very gifted genetically it's even harder to maintain. 10% is pretty easy to maintain. Getting there can be tough, but maintenance is pretty straightforward. Glad you're making progress though. Take a picture of yourself and stick with it for a few more months. Take another picture then compare them. You see yourself every day so my guess is you will be pleasantly surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiscogooner View Post
I'm not opposed to doing a type 1/ketogenic cycle. I don't crave carbs most days.

I can see my top 4 abs when flexing, are you saying I could do the type 2 if this is the case? Or that I'm lean enough already?

I had a decent amount of muscle on me before I started lifting regularly, I've always had a decent amount of muscle (legs & arms) but was fat because I ate like shit and was an alcoholic. strength gains are slower these days but are still happening. I tend to think I'm muscular enough and don't want to get/be huge. I look pretty lean now but I have some flab on my lower abs & and inner thighs which is common I hear for guys who lose a lot of fat.

losing 40 pounds and adding a bunch of muscle in 7 months is pretty decent progress and I'm really happy with it. But I'd like to get leaner. Not 5-8% range because it's not worth it to me to maintain it long-term, but 12-15, I'd be totally happy with that.
post #125 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir. View Post
I'm saying you're probably lower than 18-22% bf if you can see abs when flexing (abs, not lines after you stand up after sitting down for a while).

Haha. I know exactly what you mean. But yeah. I can see abs, not extremely defined but they're abs, not lines from flab rolls.

I'll probably start the ketogenic w/ refeed plan, and do that for 3-4 weeks and see if I'm up for doing type 2 depending on the results I see
post #126 of 962
Such a pain in ass with all this meal tracking, carb counting, calorie counting stuff. It's giving me flashbacks.

Noir, have you experimented with intermittent fasting yet?
post #127 of 962
Thread Starter 
No, but I am somewhat familiar with it. I've got to run but I'll comment later tonight.

re. counting:
I eat the same shit every day except when I go out with people. I only bother with tracking and counting when I'm prepping. Otherwise, it's a massive pain in the ass and for most people a few grams and calories up or down here or there won't matter. I do make new clients write down and measure EVERYTHING for at least 2 weeks to make sure they're dedicated enough to put in the effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lance konami View Post
Such a pain in ass with all this meal tracking, carb counting, calorie counting stuff. It's giving me flashbacks.

Noir, have you experimented with intermittent fasting yet?
post #128 of 962
I'm thinking about joining a gym next month, my plan was to start off with meeting a nutritionist and have a couple sessions with a personal trainer so I know where to start at and understand how to use the machines. I've done pretty well over the past year with just eating less/ better and totally cutting out stuff like soda, I also don't drink any alcohol so that helps but I don't eat especially healthy so I would like help setting up some sort of meal plan I guess. In your first post you basically said it doesn't mean much to be a personal trainer these days, do you think it's a waste of money to get one? I think personally I would be more motivated if I was putting more money into it and had personal guidance. I'm not looking to get big I more want to keep my frame and just become more toned, I'm basically skinny-fat...
post #129 of 962
Noir:

Maybe you can let me know if what I'm doing is ok.

Goal: get a little bigger and drop MORE body fat. I'm not a skinny weakling, I don't have trouble gaining size or weight if I hit the gym hard. When I was working out harder earlier last year I was able to squat about 245lbs 4reps weighing in at about 160lbs

Body stats:
height- 5'7
weight- ~155lbs

I go to the gym about 3 times a week and I do the 'big 6' however I hardly run (especially now that it's cold) I also don't have a set schedule as to what exercises I should perform what days.

I don't take any supplements/vitamins other than protein shakes... I know this must be bad. I suppose I should at least be taking a multi-vitamin and some kind of flax-seed oil or fish oil.

This is a usual day as far as food

8am Breakfast: 1 cup of milk, 60g of protein shake (optimum nutrition pro complex), tbsp of organic peanut butter, and half a banana. (add some cinnamon for flavor)

10am Snack: Almonds and peanuts

Lunch: two slices of whole grain bread 2 slices of ham, 2 slices of turkey, 2 slices of shaved chicken, 1 slice low fat provolone cheese, some spicy mustard sometimes a bit of BBQ sauce

2-3pm snack: almonds and fruit (usually a granny smith apple)

Pre-work out: 30g (ON 1 scoop) protein in 1 cup of water

Post-work out: 30g (ON 1 scoop) protein in 1 cup of water and a slice or two of deli turkey

Dinner: 1 chicken breast with some broccoli (sometimes some whole grain microwaveable rice)

Snack before bed around 10:30pm: 1 piece of bread toasted with some peanut butter and a little honey and 1 1/2 cup of skim milk
post #130 of 962
Thread Starter 
Ha I'm surprised this thread is still getting replies after I posted pictures. Usually that's the end of it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lance konami View Post
Such a pain in ass with all this meal tracking, carb counting, calorie counting stuff. It's giving me flashbacks. Noir, have you experimented with intermittent fasting yet?
I haven't done it yet but the people who HAVE done it tend to have some interesting results. I can see how it could be effective on (1) people in very good shape and (2) people in very bad shape. People in very bad shape that eat like shit all day long will do better with it because they're simply eating less shit. The interesting one is the people who are in very good shape already. My guess is that a well trained body can handle more than someone in not so good shape. It's still a relatively new concept and I'd be interested in a bit more (and better) research. Right now though it sounds a little quirky to me and I don't ever advocate eating crap food on a regular basis (from what I've read you're supposed to be able to "get away with it" and that's one of the appeals). I honestly don't feel good at ALL when I don't eat healthy. Greg Plitt adheres to something like this, iirc. With that said, I've never seen anyone who got started and built up a good physique solely utilizing this method. I'd actually like to give it a try for myself one of these days, but things are hectic and it's just not a good time to try something new. As it stands right now I'm very sceptical as to whether or not it would hold up to the claims. It simply doesn't make logical sense to me. Between that and having to prepare and hit a certain look at a certain time... you get the idea. Just haven't had the chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpcec View Post
I'm thinking about joining a gym next month, my plan was to start off with meeting a nutritionist and have a couple sessions with a personal trainer so I know where to start at and understand how to use the machines. I've done pretty well over the past year with just eating less/ better and totally cutting out stuff like soda, I also don't drink any alcohol so that helps but I don't eat especially healthy so I would like help setting up some sort of meal plan I guess. In your first post you basically said it doesn't mean much to be a personal trainer these days, do you think it's a waste of money to get one? I think personally I would be more motivated if I was putting more money into it and had personal guidance. I'm not looking to get big I more want to keep my frame and just become more toned, I'm basically skinny-fat...
I said it didn't mean much to be a PT any more because the certifications are so easy to get I think it could be done blindfolded. Honestly I put mine off and knocked the whole thing out in maybe 16 hours. I scored quite high as well. Ask around and see who's good. Most "trainers" I've met like to start their clients off on a god damn bosu ball. "No ma'am, you need to squat on this to develop your core strength so you can have those abs you've always wanted!" Gimme a break... But yeah, if you don't know your way around the gym a trainer can be a lifesaver. It's less important on machines because they're very linear movements and for the most part self explanatory. Some of the complex movements is where a good trainer comes into play. Form on presses (squats, bench, shoulder, etc.) and pulls (deadlifts, BB rows, bent over rows, etc.) are important to get right to avoid injury. The big, complex movements also tend to put on more muscle mass in a shorter amount of time and are important to building a solid foundation. For a meal plan, some of the ones posted are fine. My food list is pretty boring and bland. I just use spices and different ways of cooking for variety. Literally my fridge has eggs & egg whites, chicken, turkey, beef, and mozarella cheese. My freezer has almonds and broccoli. My pantry has peanut butter, protein powder, Mrs. Dash, and a bunch of spices/extracts. It's true that you're motivated if you spend money, and that's a shame. If it's something you want, do it for yourself. Otherwise you'll talk yourself out of it and just stop when it gets difficult or your progress slows down. Most people who do it regularly absolutely love it. My arms were sore this morning for the first time in months -- and I was honestly excited to feel the pain/tightness again. There's no such thing as muscle "tone." Don't use that word in front of anyone who takes the gym seriously. When people talk about "toning" muscle, they're referring to peeling the fat off the muscle that's already built. You won't get gigantic overnight, I swear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danilo View Post
Noir: Maybe you can let me know if what I'm doing is ok. Goal: get a little bigger and drop MORE body fat. I'm not a skinny weakling, I don't have trouble gaining size or weight if I hit the gym hard. When I was working out harder earlier last year I was able to squat about 245lbs 4reps weighing in at about 160lbs Body stats: height- 5'7 weight- ~155lbs I go to the gym about 3 times a week and I do the 'big 6' however I hardly run (especially now that it's cold) I also don't have a set schedule as to what exercises I should perform what days. most people do MWF. It doesn't really matter as long as you've got at least a day of rest between a total body workout. This isn't wholly necessary (and imo overtraining is harder to do than most people think it is), but if you're doing 3x anyway then it's probably closer to ideal. I don't take any supplements/vitamins other than protein shakes... I know this must be bad. I suppose I should at least be taking a multi-vitamin and some kind of flax-seed oil or fish oil. I take 2 protein powders (straight whey & a casein blend), glutamine, a liquid vitamin, BCAAs, and fish oil + flax seed. Most multi's suck so make sure you get a decent one. There was a quality ranking recently on vitamins - I forgot what won but it was pharmaceutical grade, 95%+ absorption, etc. Over 80% had less than 20% absorption rates I think. This is a usual day as far as food 8am Breakfast: 1 cup of milk, 60g of protein shake (optimum nutrition pro complex), tbsp of organic peanut butter, and half a banana. (add some cinnamon for flavor) a lot of protein in one sitting for someone your weight. Not good or not bad, but perhaps unnecessary 10am Snack: Almonds and peanuts take one of your scoops of protein here instead of with breakfast. almonds are great, peanuts are just alright. Lunch: two slices of whole grain bread 2 slices of ham, 2 slices of turkey, 2 slices of shaved chicken, 1 slice low fat provolone cheese, some spicy mustard sometimes a bit of BBQ sauce This enough food? Hard to say without macros. Also things you cook yourself tend to be better than luncheon meat if that's what you're using. 2-3pm snack: almonds and fruit (usually a granny smith apple) Pre-work out: 30g (ON 1 scoop) protein in 1 cup of water don't need a full scoop. 1/2 scoop is more than enough. I prefer BCAAs or aminos. Whether or not it makes a difference, I have no idea. Free flowing aminos will get absorbed first and it will take the most readily available first - aminos > bcaas > proteins > muscle tissue (yea I know protein is made of aminos and bcaas are as well - I'm simplifying... greatly) Post-work out: 30g (ON 1 scoop) protein in 1 cup of water and a slice or two of deli turkey CARBS. Have them here. Spike that insulin, restore that glycogen. Dinner: 1 chicken breast with some broccoli (sometimes some whole grain microwaveable rice) rice is okay if it's a workout day. I wouldn't if it isn't. Snack before bed around 10:30pm: 1 piece of bread toasted with some peanut butter and a little honey and 1 1/2 cup of skim milk[ cut the bread, honey, and milk out before bed. All three are chock full of carbs/sugars. This is the only thing that I actually screamed "WTF" to. Cottage cheese + almonds, or casein powder + almonds. Worst case do the whey and a few almonds. I talked a bit about lactose on the "whey vs. milk" thread. lactose is slow to digest but crazy insulin spiking. add in the honey and bread and you're asking for some excess fat gain. Have this stuff with your PWO shake instead, less the PB.
I commented in bold. All in all there's nothing majorly wrong with the exception of the PM carbs if you're trying to lean up. Note, however, that I didn't even attempt to add up macros or total kcals.
post #131 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpcec View Post
my plan was to start off with meeting a nutritionist

Don't do this.

I think I saw caesar dressing and bread somewhere up there..? For what it's worth, I've never met anyone who stuck to the "1-ingredient" rule and didn't look bad ass.
post #132 of 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir. View Post
I haven't done it yet but the people who HAVE done it tend to have some interesting results. I can see how it could be effective on (1) people in very good shape and (2) people in very bad shape. People in very bad shape that eat like shit all day long will do better with it because they're simply eating less shit.

The interesting one is the people who are in very good shape already. My guess is that a well trained body can handle more than someone in not so good shape. It's still a relatively new concept and I'd be interested in a bit more (and better) research. Right now though it sounds a little quirky to me and I don't ever advocate eating crap food on a regular basis (from what I've read you're supposed to be able to "get away with it" and that's one of the appeals). I honestly don't feel good at ALL when I don't eat healthy. Greg Plitt adheres to something like this, iirc.

With that said, I've never seen anyone who got started and built up a good physique solely utilizing this method. I'd actually like to give it a try for myself one of these days, but things are hectic and it's just not a good time to try something new. As it stands right now I'm very sceptical as to whether or not it would hold up to the claims. It simply doesn't make logical sense to me. Between that and having to prepare and hit a certain look at a certain time... you get the idea. Just haven't had the chance.

You should check into it. Here's some good stuff to read

Meal Frequency: How many meals per day should you eat?

Eating more meals does NOT speed up your metabolism
Eating more meals does NOT speed up your metabolism part 2
Leangains (Includes before and after pics of people using IF)
post #133 of 962
Thread Starter 
^ oh yeah I missed the nutritionst part. Most are terrible... like god awful bad. I had one tell me I was killing people's kidneys by telling them they needed more than 8g of protein in a meal to grow. The caesar dressing was someone else I think - it's not a huge huge deal if the ingredients are healthy. Not something you'd do when prepping of course, but there's not much you can do either. and I don't buy bread. The only carbs I have in my house right now are oats, rice, whatever few grams are in the bars I've stocked for emergencies running out the door, and I have some low-carb (read: high fiber) soft taco shells because I made some burrittos about two weeks ago. I think I ate 2 and the rest of it from gladware without shells. Oh, I think I have a can of beans in there somewhere too...
post #134 of 962
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lance konami View Post

Yeah I've read the leangains stuff and a few others. I'll bookmark those and get to them hopefully this weekend. Cheers for the links, I'll let you know my thoughts when I've had a chance to look more closely.

TBH though I'm still quite skeptical. I've talked to david hook before (he's mentioned in one of the earlier leangains blogs) and he certainly didn't build his physique that way - though it's incredible and I'll give him props for it and he's a really nice guy.
post #135 of 962
i am shrinking from lack of carbs and having issues with it. looks like my crystal ball is showing turanabol and propionate in my immediate future.
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