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Kabbaz shirts? - Page 2  

post #16 of 78
I think it's a little unfair to take such offense and say that some of the comments here are made out of "mean-spiritedness;" instead I would say that it is more of a healthy dose of skepticism that comes from the industry's large presence of exhorbitantly priced goods that fail to deliver in terms of quality. Considering the large number of bargain shoppers here, $600 is beyond the limits of reason most people will pay for *any* shirt, no matter what the quality; and for some, like myself, a minimum order from Kabbaz would prove fatal to a bank account. Since enough people will pay that much for a shirt to keep your business viable, it's fair to say that they are worth that much from an economic standpoint. In terms of quality, the posters here would like to have the information for themselves rather than take the word of wealthy celebrities. I think you've realized that though, and I'm sure we all appreciate that you are willing to come here and be a good sport in discussing the craftsmanship and economics of your shirts in order to convince the naysayers. I confess that at this point in my life I have neither the financial means to be a client of yours nor the knowledge of shirt-making to pass an authoritative judgement on your clothes. Nonetheless, I'm glad to see that even prominent figures in the industry take this forum seriously, and I look forward to reading an outline of your shirt-making process.
post #17 of 78
Okay folks, basic economics: Mr. Kabbaz can (and I presume, will) charge what the market will bear. If you do not wish to pay what he's asking, then don't. If enough refuse to pay, then he'll either have to lower prices or go out of business. He seems to be worried about neither of those happening, however. If you are sophisticated enough to find equal or superior products at a lower price, then that's exactly what you should do. Doesn't every shirtmaker essentially portray their product as "the best"? That's simply business, not dishonesty. I've not seen anyone say the Kabbaz shirts are of poor quality. If Mr. Kabbaz is offering a quality product then I see no reason to criticize him. We're dealing with luxury items here. None of you "need" a $200, $300, or $1000 shirt. But if you can afford one and want one, then have at it. But don't be bitter because someone is asking more than you're willing to pay.
post #18 of 78
Quote:
I've spent over $5,000 trying custom shirts made by Borrelli, Kiton, Turnbull & Asser, and Charvet, and they all have proved to be disappointing, and I don't wear them.  And that's not to say that Charvet and the others aren't great shirtmakers, but for me personally, it just didn't work out.  An expensive education for me. Kabbaz was the fifth shirtmaker I tried, and his are the finest shirts I own.  He went through one initial measurement and four fittings (yes, four, at his insistence, no less.) to create a perfect fit for me.  The construction of the shirts are remarkable, (bottom of my collar mimics the curves of my trapezoid and neck muscles).  I wear Alex's shirts all the time, and because they are worn so frequently relative to my other shirts, they are a great value to me.
these are the most important statements made on this thread so far. i remember cherrytree's post about his custom shirt buying spree and how he was disappointed by everyone. if that's the case, and a kabbaz shirt is the only one he is willing to wear, then i don't think the price needs any justification. on the other hand, in my experience, i've had great results from a man here in los angeles who charges $100 and up. unfortunately his choice of fabrics is not extensive, but after you have the pattern exactly the way you want it, you can send your shirt to any good shirtmaker and have them copy that shirt in a different fabric, (sometimes for as little as $45.) when it comes to shirts i think quality is determined by 3 things: how the fabric feels, how good it looks on you, and how long it lasts. you don't need to be an expert in shirtmaking to determine this. in fact, in many things, expertise can sometimes color your opinion toward a less objective view. look at all the experts that say hand stitching is better and those who say machine stitching is better. someone is wrong.
post #19 of 78
alan, the issue here is not that we want him to lower his prices. $600 shoes are generally of higher quality than $200 ones. we just want to know if it's the same with his shirts. if it is, that's great. we'd love to know more about them.
post #20 of 78
Oh, and Mr. Kabbaz, I've been studying your laundry and ironing techniques since someone was kind enough to link it on your site. Thanks for having that up there--I'm changing a lot of my approach with that information. I had been under the impression that it was best to cold wash dress shirts, but I see you recommend hot for whites and warm for colors. Wouldn't a cold wash be gentler on the shirts?
post #21 of 78
Thread Starter 
Depends upon your detergent. If you are using Tide, then it does not dissolve as well in cold water. The plain simple truth is that the cooler the water the less the damage. However, if you are noticing an overall brownish tint - or random brownish spots - after ironing, then your cold water is too hard to dissolve the soap out of the fabric. The brown you might see is scorched soap.
post #22 of 78
Mr. Kabbaz, you're coming unglued at the misconstrued inference that I have disparaged your customers, their life's accomplishments, their intelligence, and their children and grandchildren, for spending what most would describe as ridiculous amounts of money on shirts. Your ego is breathtaking---I am criticizing the absurd prices of your shirts, therefore in your fevered mind your customers' reputations have been sullied. Talk about visions of grandeur. You're relying on the status of your customers to promote your business, and so you're understandly sensitive to anyone questioning not their business acumen but their common sense and fashion sense. I'm not impressed with where your clients went to school nor whether they own a seat on the NYSE as it does not correlate to their knowledge of the finer points of quality clothes. One of the great lawyers of our time, David Boies, famously wears $150 suits and $25 shirts from Lands End. Does that mean we should all go out and buy LE suits? Most of those on this board have far, far greater knowledge of, interest in, and appreciation for fine clothing than most of your customers. In fact, I'd venture to say that most of your customers are far too engrossed in their careers, their business endeavors, their families, and their lives in general to be concerned about their shirts. Many if not most of those listed as customers are not exactly fashion plates. Each time I see Preston Tisch, supposedly one of your customers, I chuckle at how ill-fitting his suits are. This is not to take away from his enormous business achievements, but he clearly gives little attention to his wardrobe. He also wears one of the most hideous hairpieces, so I would not trust his outlook on matters related to style---perhaps you can weave a better one for him out of rare Swiss cotton. And, I suppose I should be impressed you allegedly made shirts for Irving Berlin, and others not known for their sartorial greatness? Sorry, I'm not. Some of the most celebrated men I know are some of the biggest slobs I know. I do not buy into your thesis, a cynical thesis used by purveyours of items related to the most conspicuous of consumption, that the quality of one's customer base equates to the quality of the products they buy. Even the richest, most brilliant, most successful men can have zero taste--They can also be suckered and they often are. In fact, many of the most successful truly never went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. If your shirts are exemplary, I tip my hat to you, but it is an insult to my intelligence to tout your customers as an indication of the qualty of your shirts. Please, I'm truly too savvy to fall for that nonsense.
post #23 of 78
What a great thread. I read with much interest the four pages of posts. I first read about Kabbaz shirts in a Cigar Afficionado magazine several years ago, and have seen the extensive website. Having just bought my first Lorenzini shirt, I'm beginning to see the value of machine work (rather than paying more for hand stitched buttonholes, shoulder attachment, etc.). I'm curious as to the suits Kabbaz clients typically wear with their shirts....I know steve wynn is a William Fioravanti fan. I think it would be great to see some pictures on a forum post of shirts in production, much like the post by mr. harris on handmade shoe production from Vass.
post #24 of 78
I interject only to say that I concur entirely with marc's last post.
post #25 of 78
Well, Mr. Kabbaz states on his Website he is associated with the "custom tailor" Jon Green, but the problem is...Green is *not* a tailor. http://www.madisonavenuenyc.com/ASK/suits01.html Green, too, elicits "rolled eyes" when his name comes up. So, presumably, many of Mr. Kabbaz's customers are "adorned" with Green's over-priced, mediocre garments--The very garments farmed out to at least one *apprentice* tailor I know. I guess it's a case of birds of a feather... But, Green's customers are cut from the same expensive cloth as Mr. Kabbaz's customers, so Green, with Mr. Kabbaz nodding his head in complete approval, would point to his elite clientele as the perfect indication of his "incredible" garments...Or, more accurately, his in-credible garments.
post #26 of 78
The Foxx: I have a bridge to sell you, and Steve Wynn is interested in the bridge, too. You ready to sign on the dotted line? So Steve Wynn is a customer of Fioravanti--Is Steve Wynn on any Best Dressed lists? None I know of. Have you ever seen Steve Wynn? He dresses like a Las Vegas gangster. More to the point, have you ever seen Fioravanti? I have, on several occasions, wearing his so-called "power suits" but I think his suits blew a fuse. The last time I saw him crossing 57th St, in NYC, his trousers appeared to be bell-bottoms, with no cuffs, and they were cut way too long. But, Fioravanti's suits start at $4,500 or $5,000, so they must be great, right? (snicker)
post #27 of 78
Quote:
Green, too, elicits "rolled eyes" when his name comes up. So, presumably, many of Mr. Kabbaz's customers are "adorned" with Green's over-priced, mediocre garments--The very garments farmed out to at least one *apprentice* tailor I know.
Generally speaking, repeating an assertion that has previously been refuted and that you know has been refuted without reference to that refutation is considered at the very least poor form. See Cherrytree's response one up from the bottom of this page.
Quote:
I guess it's a case of birds of a feather... But, Green's customers are cut from the same expensive cloth as Mr. Kabbaz's customers, so Green, with Mr. Kabbaz nodding his head in complete approval, would point to his elite clientele as the perfect indication of his "incredible" garments...Or, more accurately, his in-credible garments.
You've commented extensively on Jon Green, but you've never claimed to have seen his work. You're now disparaging Mr. Kabbaz, and you've never claimed to have seen his work. If you have something specific to say about the work of either of these men, then let's hear it. If not, your posts are just so much flatulence.
post #28 of 78
jcusey: Um, I happen to know the apprentice tailor who has made for Jon Green, so refutations are meaningless. It's past your bedtime, kid.
post #29 of 78
Quote:
jcusey: Um, I happen to know the apprentice tailor who has made for Jon Green, so refutations are meaningless. It's past your bedtime, kid.
Snicker. You've had the chance to address Cherrytree's response on a meaningful level twice now, and you've refused to do so. That says volumes about your intellectual honesty and your debating skills.
post #30 of 78
jcusey: Don't make assumptions on what I've not seen, or more accurately, what I have seen. Unlike you, I can afford the stuff being discussed, but I'm not impressed, also unlike you. Now, ask your mommy to read you a fairy tale and tuck you into bed.
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