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Is this St.Andrew suit? - Page 3

post #31 of 38
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So why would anyone suspect Brioni uses fusing?
They wouldn't, I think that's the point we are trying to make. Jon.
post #32 of 38
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How do you know for sure? You can't tell by just looking, and a "pinch test" will tell you nothing.  By fusing, I'm not talking about the chest. Brioni, RL, Cantarelli, etc... have no fusing in the chest, they are fully canvassed in the chest. Thus will qualify as a "canvassed suit." Brioni, RLPL, Oxxford, Kiton are hand canvassed, lesser priced ones are machine canvassed.  All manufacturers use *some* degree of fusing (Kiton is entirely hand made). However, on Brioni or Cantarelli, it's so insignificant that it doesn't really matter, and in places that you couldn't even tell.  On Cantarelli, RL, Zegna, etc... (suits priced from $1K to $2K), moderate fusing is used in the collar, and mostly in areas below the bottom button of the coat. Thus I said "some fusing." Again,  it is pretty insignificant. If I didn't tell you this, you wouldn't even know. If you had a better trained eye, you could tell in areas below the first button.  BB Golden Fleece, while a very high quality suit, isn't entirely hand made. They would literally loose money for retailing a suit at that price if it was 100% hand made/hand stitched.  To clear things up, Brioni uses an absurd amount of handwork. I haven't seen it talked about accurately on this board, as to what it is in real life. The amount of hours that go into each coat, are the highest in the industry, next to Kiton. However, there is a bit of fusing in the collar; which doesn't make a difference.
Mike, I don't know where you are getting your information, but I have to disagree with just about everything you are saying in these posts... I've cut most all of these jackets open, and the lapels are all done by machine, with the exception of Oxxford. I do have a double breasted Brioni jacket here that has the very tips of the lapels basted by hand, while the rest of the lapel is done by machine - that is the only exception I've seen. In my opinion all the talk about Kiton, Brioni etc. significantly more handmade inside the jacket (canvassing, shoulder construction etc.) than say, a Saint Andrew's, is absolute myth. I have seen nor heard absolutely no convincing evidence to prove it. Lot's of vague assertions by lots of people, but nothing specific, and nothing apparent from looking inside the jackets. Now I could be wrong, but I'm going to need some specific evidence, not just an assumption...
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Quote:
How do you know for sure? You can't tell by just looking, and a "pinch test" will tell you nothing. By fusing, I'm not talking about the chest. Brioni, RL, Cantarelli, etc... have no fusing in the chest, they are fully canvassed in the chest. Thus will qualify as a "canvassed suit." Brioni, RLPL, Oxxford, Kiton are hand canvassed, lesser priced ones are machine canvassed. All manufacturers use *some* degree of fusing (Kiton is entirely hand made). However, on Brioni or Cantarelli, it's so insignificant that it doesn't really matter, and in places that you couldn't even tell. On Cantarelli, RL, Zegna, etc... (suits priced from $1K to $2K), moderate fusing is used in the collar, and mostly in areas below the bottom button of the coat. Thus I said "some fusing." Again, it is pretty insignificant. If I didn't tell you this, you wouldn't even know. If you had a better trained eye, you could tell in areas below the first button. BB Golden Fleece, while a very high quality suit, isn't entirely hand made. They would literally loose money for retailing a suit at that price if it was 100% hand made/hand stitched. To clear things up, Brioni uses an absurd amount of handwork. I haven't seen it talked about accurately on this board, as to what it is in real life. The amount of hours that go into each coat, are the highest in the industry, next to Kiton. However, there is a bit of fusing in the collar; which doesn't make a difference.
Mike, I don't know where you are getting your information, but I have to disagree with just about everything you are saying in these posts... I've cut most all of these jackets open, and the lapels are all done by machine, with the exception of Oxxford. I do have a double breasted Brioni jacket here that has the very tips of the lapels basted by hand, while the rest of the lapel is done by machine - that is the only exception I've seen. In my opinion all the talk about Kiton, Brioni etc. significantly more handmade inside the jacket (canvassing, shoulder construction etc.) than say, a Saint Andrew's, is absolute myth. I have seen nor heard absolutely no convincing evidence to prove it. Lot's of vague assertions by lots of people, but nothing specific, and nothing apparent from looking inside the jackets. Now I could be wrong, but I'm going to need some specific evidence, not just an assumption...
Bump. Jon.
post #34 of 38
A. Harris, how do you recognize the handstitching in the lapels? By the irregularity, or by the lack of "loops." The presence of loops is a dead give away that it's maching padded, of course. The basted Brioni in Neiman Marcus does not have loops and looks every bit handstitched. But more importantly, I found a cheap, old Polo Blue Label sportcoat at a consignment shop today. These were the ones made in America back in the early 1990s -- by H. Freeman I think (but I could be wrong). A fully canvassed sportcoat (and, no, the modern Blue Label is not fully canvassed) and I opted to cut it open. The lapels were machine padded -- the loops were a dead giveaway, as was the inferior thread (looked more like fishing lures than thread.). There was no sign of any fusing anywhere in the suit. Like I said, there was cotton "tape" at the seams -- it was stitched in -- and then the canvas was stitched the to the tape. No fusing in the collar, in the placket, on the lower parts of the jacket. Nothing. This sportcoat could not have cost very much at retail -- certainly no more than a Golden Fleece would have -- and it was definitely not made by Oxxford. The fact that it had not one speck of fusing I think pretty much refutes the claims made in this thread. I would take pictures, but it's really not worth the trouble.
post #35 of 38
Quote:
A. Harris, how do you recognize the handstitching in the lapels?  By the irregularity, or by the lack of "loops."  The presence of loops is a dead give away that it's maching padded, of course.  The basted Brioni in Neiman Marcus does not have loops and looks every bit handstitched.   But more importantly, I found a cheap, old Polo Blue Label sportcoat at a consignment shop today.  These were the ones made in America back in the early 1990s -- by H. Freeman I think (but I could be wrong).  A fully canvassed sportcoat (and, no, the modern Blue Label is not fully canvassed) and I opted to cut it open.  The lapels were machine padded -- the loops were a dead giveaway, as was the inferior thread (looked more like fishing lures than thread.).  There was no sign of any fusing anywhere in the suit.  Like I said, there was cotton "tape" at the seams -- it was stitched in -- and then the canvas was stitched the to the tape.  No fusing in the collar, in the placket, on the lower parts of the jacket.  Nothing.
Can someone post some pics to illustrate the "loops" and other giveaway signs of machine paddings for us newbies? i have no clue what you guys are talking about otherwise. Thx.
post #36 of 38
Look at the inside bottom of your suit pants hem.  See how the hem is stiched with a "loop" stitch?  That's basically what it looks like.
post #37 of 38
Without opening up the coat I haven't been able to tell conclusively, but cut it open and it's obvious - the"looped" stitches you describe give it away.
post #38 of 38
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Can someone post some pics to illustrate the "loops" and other giveaway signs of machine paddings for us newbies?  i have no clue what you guys are talking about otherwise. Thx.
Keep in mind that the only way you're ever going to see this is to cut a suit open, or to see an unfinished suit on a tailor's dummy. On a finished suit, all this stuff is completely hidden.
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