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Greg Maddux to announce retirement - Page 2

post #16 of 29
12/6/08 at 6:19pm
Maddux is a class act and I enjoyed watching him pitch although I'm happy that he's never had much luck against the Diamondbacks!
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post #17 of 29
12/6/08 at 9:47pm
certainly didn't mean to disparage in any way-he's among my 3 favorite players all time. i just meant that he didn't strike fear in opposing batters but again, had one of the greatest stretches ever and was a joy to watch for someone like me who is more a fan of the paint the corner types.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post
I disagree. As long as he could make positive contributions and was enjoying what he was doing, more power to him. And measuring dominance by strikeouts (although he did have decent strikeout totals in his prime) is a fantasy baseball metric, not a real baseball metric. What counts is the likelihood that you'd win a game he was pitching for you. Who was the more "dominant" pitcher, either in their prime or over the course of a career: Greg Maddux or Kerry Wood (who has averaged more than 10 k's per nine innings over his career). (Admittedly a less-than-perfect comparison, but it's off the top of my head, and you obviously get the point.)
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post #18 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:22pm
Nolan Ryan struck fear into a lot of hearts... but remains ridiculously overrated to the average fan. (nb: I had front row seats to his seventh no-hitter - third-base side, old Arlington Stadium, just before the clock on that side - I think we were directly in line with third)

Maddux didn't have anyone fearing a fastball to the noggin - but you don't finish as one of the five greatest pitchers in history without hitters being scared to face you.
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post #19 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:27pm
my top 5:

1. walter johnson
2. sandy koufax
3. roger clemens
4. christy mathewson
5. greg maddux
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post #20 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron View Post
I feel very lucky to have seen Maddux, Pedro and Randy Johnson pitch their whole career. I'd throw Clemens in there as well but I hate him. All time greats that truly dominated in an hitters' era.
I've seen the ones you mention, but the most dominating I ever saw was sitting right behind home plate when Kevin Brown threw a no-hitter against the Giants at Candlestick. I think the only basrunner was a guy he hit with a pitch. I've never seen a baseball move around like the one he was throwing that day.
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post #21 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:41pm
I actually saw Sandy Koufax pitch in 1959 at the LA Coliseum before Chavez Ravine was built.

My Dad took me to the game and I regret that I was too young to appreciate Koufax's mastery.

He well might have been the greatest pitcher ever, but his shortened career and the difficulty of comparing old time pitchers to newer pitchers makes it impossible to know.

Check This (from Wikipedia):

Sanford Koufax (pronounced /ˈkoʊfæks/) (born Sanford Braun, on December 30, 1935) is an American left-handed former pitcher in Major League Baseball who played his entire career for the Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers, from 1955 to 1966.

Koufax's career peaked with a run of six outstanding seasons from 1961 to 1966, before arthritis ended his career at age 30. He was named the National League's Most Valuable Player in 1963, and won the 1963, 1965, and 1966 Cy Young Awards by unanimous votes, all during the period when only one pitcher was chosen per season. In each of his Cy Young seasons, Koufax won the pitcher's triple crown by leading the NL in wins, strikeouts, and earned run average. Koufax's totals would also have led the American League in those seasons.[1][2]

Koufax was the first major leaguer to pitch four no-hitters (including a perfect game). Despite his comparatively short career, Koufax's 2,396 career strikeouts ranked 7th in history as of his retirement, trailing only Warren Spahn (2,583) among lefthanders. Retiring at the peak of his career, he became, at age 36 and 20 days, the youngest player ever elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.[3]

Koufax is also remembered as one of the outstanding Jewish athletes in American sport. His decision not to pitch Game 1 of the 1965 World Series because it fell on Yom Kippur garnered national attention as an example of conflict between social pressures and personal beliefs

Absolutely amazing. I doubt anyone in our era will come close to these accomplishments. Clemons was probably the last of this type. His longevity was obviously much better than Koufax but even Clemon's stats pale in comparison.

Guys like Sabathia and Santana are great but I just can't imagine them putting up numbers like Clemons let alone Koufax for long periods of time like a decade or more!
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post #22 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:41pm
200 wins, 600 homers are the new benchmarks.
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post #23 of 29
12/6/08 at 10:51pm
Maddux also possessed exceptional defensive skills, probably the best ever at pitcher position.
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post #24 of 29
12/6/08 at 11:20pm
Koufax pitched in an extreme pitchers' park, in an extreme pitchers' era, in front of a great defense, for a short amount of time. Great, but I'd rather have Pedro (as far as short-peak pitchers go).

I'd probably go Big Train, Maddux, Clemens (ugh, I feel dirty even putting that - particularly given the PED difference between Maddux and Clemens), Lefty Grove, Christy
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post #25 of 29
12/6/08 at 11:20pm
note: first sentence goes on the list of things I would never say to my lifelong Dodgers-fan father. A real relationship-ender.
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post #26 of 29
12/6/08 at 11:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by milosz View Post
Koufax pitched in an extreme pitchers' park, in an extreme pitchers' era, in front of a great defense, for a short amount of time. Great, but I'd rather have Pedro (as far as short-peak pitchers go).

I'd probably go Big Train, Maddux, Clemens (ugh, I feel dirty even putting that - particularly given the PED difference between Maddux and Clemens), Lefty Grove, Christy

Do you mean Pedro Martinez?

I can't see comparing him to Koufax let alone you saying you would prefer him to Koufax.

"Short peak pitchers" is a great term and one I've never heard.

I had the pleasure of seeing Bob Gibson at his peak with the Cardinals and Denny Mclane of the Tigers in his 30 win year. You could certainly term them great "Short peak pitchers", especially Gibson, but IMO neither matches Koufax.

In a 4 year period Koufax won the pitcher's triple crown ( in both leagues ). Wins, strike outs and ERA. No matter how great a defense Koufax had and how much of a pitcher's park he was in, I don't think Pedro Martinez ( although great for a while ) was remotely as overpowering as Koufax in any 4 year period. Neither has any other pitcher been like that before or after.
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post #27 of 29
12/6/08 at 11:41pm
I'm a lifelong Dodger fan, too, but I see things the same way you do. I'm a baseball geek and I can't deny the park/league/defense effect when comparing pitchers across eras. ERA+ for best 5 year stretch from assorted pitchers. Koufax: 141, 159, 187, 160, 190 Maddux: 271, 262, 162, 189, 187 Pedro: 243, 291, 189, 202, 210 Unit: 135, 186, 181, 188, 197 Those numbers represent ERA adjusted for ballpark and league, and it's scaled at 100 = league average. Maddux and Pedro were clearly more dominant in their primes than any other pitchers. Pedro was over 100% better than the league over a 5 year period - that's insane and significantly better than anyone, ever. His 2000 season is crazy - 1.74 era in a year when the league was 5.07, pitching in the best hitter's park in the AL, in the strongest division in baseball. .737 runners per inning. 284 strikeouts and 32 walks. Unreal. rnoldh: in 1963, when Koufax had a 1.88 ERA, the NL ERA as a whole was 2.99. And Dodger Stadium at that time was probably the greatest pitcher's park in modern baseball history. I love Koufax, but you can't deny the effects of park and era.
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post #28 of 29
12/6/08 at 11:46pm
He obviously didn't have the same sustained success -- his body just gave out under him -- but at his best John Tudor was one of my favorites to watch. Made hitters look helpless throwing in the 80 mph range.
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post #29 of 29
12/7/08 at 12:51am
Maddux was really good. When he was really on, it would almost tick you off - he'd make it look so easy and be so cool about it. Three up, three down, let's go to the next inning. He'd act normal out there with none of the external intensity that marks so many other dominant pitchers.

His hitting and fielding were always tops for his position and there's no doubt that he always did his utmost to help his team win through all phases of the game. I don't think anyone will ever confuse his fitness level with David Wells.

I hope Maddux turns to coaching. His ability to change speeds without giving it away via arm motion is a great gift and a tool that can benefit any pitcher.
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