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Denim 101 for Men's Clothing - Page 90

post #1336 of 1451
The ever-popular PBJ xx005 is a slim straight that I'm sure many on MC would find too slim for their tastes. Sure, there are a few on here that would venture that route (like lawyerdad wearing Dior), but it's more the exception than the rule. It also comes from the age of the average MCer and reason for wearing that's different from the tastes of SW&D.

"Slim-straight" isn't a concrete objective term. Few people on here or sufu wear "skinny" jeans, and the tapered stuff tends not to be exaggerated or extreme. But again, one's definition of "slim straight" will vary wildly by their own personal taste. LVC 1947 might be thrown in as a "slim straight" pair but would be a boxy fit to some; similarly, the 67 505 is what I would consider slim straight but is too skinny for some.

Skinny isn't loved by some brands discussed on sufu because they are repros of old Levi's like Sugar Cane and aren't meant at all to be geared as such. Iron Heart was arguably a pretty boxy brand until the Self Edge collabs geared toward skinny kids.
post #1337 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

I think you really, really need to clarify this statement. A lot of people on here assume that if it's an SW&D brand then it will only fit on skinny hipsters.

I'd describe the archetypal "MC jean" as "dark mid-rise straight with slight taper." A little bit more refined than the average 501, which has a higher rise.

By skinny jeans I mean those with awkwardly tight proportions. For an average size person with a 32 or 33 waist, this is usually a rise of 10 or less, thigh of 11.5 or less, and a leg opening of around 7 to 8. (Blue in Green method)

Examples of skinny jeans include in my experience: APC New Cure, RRL "Slim" Fit, and all or most of 3Sixteen, Naked and Famous, and Nudie. I think it's clear going through the WAYWN threads that a lot of the SW&D population likes the skinny aesthetic. You are correct that there's also a population on SW&D that likes repro jeans and "MC jeans."

I should clarify that different models from different brands can vary a lot, which I why I gave the model names. A lot of the brands that I mentioned in my first list have both archetypal MC jeans and skinny jeans.
post #1338 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

I'd describe the archetypal "MC jean" as "dark mid-rise straight with slight taper." A little bit more refined than the average 501, which has a higher rise.
Do you mean what you see on here or what you think would work here? Typically, people of the MC aesthetic and background don't buy this way. It's not just my opinion but overall experience both on this forum and from friends in retail. I'm not sure if I'd even recommend a taper for most on this side of the forum since it's not really a necessity for "work casual" or weekend wear. It's a hard enough sell to push someone used to relaxed fits into slimmer, but tapering, even if slight, is a bigger jump. And again, if the jeans are cut relatively slim to start, the taper is more of personal preference than function for fit, especially if minor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

By skinny jeans I mean those with awkwardly tight proportions. For an average size person with a 32 or 33 waist, this is usually a rise of 10 or less, thigh of 11.5 or less, and a leg opening of around 7 to 8. (Blue in Green method)
By your measurements, this is a pair of skinny jeans with awkwardly tight proportions:
490

I'm not trying to throw in back in your face but rather to show a classic example of how some people's perceptions of "slim" and "skinny" are completely subjective, and that measurements don't always tell the full story. As an aside, a good chunk of my jeans are cut with the specs you listed. I can't say I consider them skinny or awkwardly tight myself. With a bit to the rise, you have cuts that are considered classics like the lee 101z, lvc 67 505, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Examples of skinny jeans include in my experience: APC New Cure, RRL "Slim" Fit, and all or most of 3Sixteen, Naked and Famous, and Nudie.
Eh. I'm not sure if I'd call any of those "skinny", especially not 3six. You get into stuff like Julian Red, April 77, Somet, or some of the collabs Kiya has done, then yeah, those are skinny. For all the brands and cuts you listed above, I've seen people wear them and most wouldn't guess that they'd be labeled as "skinny."
post #1339 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

I'm not sure if I'd even recommend a taper for most on this side of the forum since it's not really a necessity for "work casual" or weekend wear.

Most established MC members have sleeker lasted shoes, so slight taper is well liked. But that's just my perception

Quote:
By your measurements, this is a pair of skinny jeans with awkwardly tight proportions:

What jean is that? Side view might be a different story
Quote:
I'm not sure if I'd call any of those "skinny", especially not 3six.

Might be biased on this one because I have more muscular legs. All the thighs on 3Sixteen's are like 10.75 to 11.5, which is tight.
post #1340 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

I think you really, really need to clarify this statement. A lot of people on here assume that if it's an SW&D brand then it will only fit on skinny hipsters.

I'd describe the archetypal "MC jean" as "dark mid-rise straight with slight taper." A little bit more refined than the average 501, which has a higher rise.

Haha... That's exactly what I'm looking for. I hope you don't mind if I interrupt your conversation with a question. Would APC Petit Standards fit that bill, for a skinny guy (31 waist)? I feel like if my non-thin friends can wear New Standards, then they'll probably end up baggy for me. But maybe I'm wrong...
post #1341 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makoto Chan View Post

Haha... That's exactly what I'm looking for. I hope you don't mind if I interrupt your conversation with a question. Would APC Petit Standards fit that bill, for a skinny guy (31 waist)? I feel like if my non-thin friends can wear New Standards, then they'll probably end up baggy for me. But maybe I'm wrong...

I wouldn't call the New Standard baggy at all. Petit Standards are like the same cut as the New Cure, only 0.5 inches larger everywhere. (Context measurements)

Honestly, something like the New Standard is the slimmest jeans I'd even consider.
post #1342 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

Do you mean what you see on here or what you think would work here? Typically, people of the MC aesthetic and background don't buy this way. It's not just my opinion but overall experience both on this forum and from friends in retail. I'm not sure if I'd even recommend a taper for most on this side of the forum since it's not really a necessity for "work casual" or weekend wear. It's a hard enough sell to push someone used to relaxed fits into slimmer, but tapering, even if slight, is a bigger jump. And again, if the jeans are cut relatively slim to start, the taper is more of personal preference than function for fit, especially if minor.

All this talk about "slim" "straight" and "taper" is misleading. Really what you need to know about jeans is (a) do the waist/thighs fit, and (b) is the leg opening the size you want.

Many "straight fit" jeans have no taper from knee to ankle, but are very slim, because they have small thighs and knees - e.g. Levi's 1947 inspired cuts. Likewise, many "tapered" jeans look fairly relaxed because they have wide thighs and knees - e.g. Levi's 1966 cuts.

I'm also confused by the notion that the "MC aesthetic" requires jeans with wide leg openings. The classic style of wearing jeans from the "golden era" of the 1940s - 1970s was very slim. Likewise, all the favorite MC brands like Borrelli and Incotex make jeans that are skinnier than most SW&D brands. If there's any difference between the MC and SW&D aesthetics it would be that MC favors more vintage/faded looking jeans and SW&D likes raw or contrast faded jeans, but even that is not really true.

I don't even know what the historical reference point is for wide leg openings on jeans. 19th century miners? 1990s hip hop? Dads and IT professionals (or what you refer to as "work casual")?
post #1343 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Most established MC members have sleeker lasted shoes, so slight taper is well liked. But that's just my perception
But again, is this your perception on what they should be buying or that the members who post do buy, or what MCers actually buy? Again, slight tapers work well for some aesthetics but they aren't at all necessary if the jeans are slim to begin with. 8" knee to 8" cuff is going to look the same as a 8.25" knee to 8" cuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

What jean is that? Side view might be a different story
C'mon, seriously? I just picked a pair at random that had those specs. A lot of the jeans I own are very similar and are in no way skinny, but have at it, hoss: http://shop.imogeneandwillie.com/collections/mens/products/willie-rigid
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Might be biased on this one because I have more muscular legs. All the thighs on 3Sixteen's are like 10.75 to 11.5, which is tight.
I think you proved my point about the subjectivity of calling something "skinny" versus "slim."
post #1344 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makoto Chan View Post

Haha... That's exactly what I'm looking for. I hope you don't mind if I interrupt your conversation with a question. Would APC Petit Standards fit that bill, for a skinny guy (31 waist)? I feel like if my non-thin friends can wear New Standards, then they'll probably end up baggy for me. But maybe I'm wrong...
It depends on your body type and what you're comfortable with. But if you're a skinny guy, you're going to be fine in PS or NC. The problem with how people wear APC is that they have it engrained into their brains that they need to size down 4 for a fit. FWIW, I know several "average build" dudes that prefer the fit of the PS while the outcome has people thinking their NS. Quite a few SW&Ders do this, in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

All this talk about "slim" "straight" and "taper" is misleading. Really what you need to know about jeans is (a) do the waist/thighs fit, and (b) is the leg opening the size you want.
Many "straight fit" jeans have no taper from knee to ankle, but are very slim, because they have small thighs and knees - e.g. Levi's 1947 inspired cuts. Likewise, many "tapered" jeans look fairly relaxed because they have wide thighs and knees - e.g. Levi's 1966 cuts.
I would certainly hope so because that's the very definition of a straight fit jean. The problem is that within the SW&D community, describing something as a "straight fit" would imply that it isn't slim. 1947 isn't "very slim" by any stretch of the SW&D imagination. If anything, they're a standard straight fit with a slight taper. 8.75" cuffs on a 32, personally, are repro territory and would be considered by most on SW&D as "wide leg."

I'd also like to know where you get the idea that "many" tapered jeans are relaxed. If they are, then they're not a traditional tapered pair in the sense that they're slim throughout with a taper. Instead, what you're describing is a carrot, or "anti" fit (relaxed thighs, tapered hem) which is less common. I could point you to links all day that showcase the difference. The point is, many brands that are patronized by SW&D use the "tapered" description in their line to denote slim or skinny jeans. Typically, this will mean that they have taken their "slim" pair and merely tapered it or slimmed down the measurements further overall. A basic mall brand like Unbranded is a good example of this. Many brands on Self Edge are also good examples of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

I'm also confused by the notion that the "MC aesthetic" requires jeans with wide leg openings. The classic style of wearing jeans from the "golden era" of the 1940s - 1970s was very slim. Likewise, all the favorite MC brands like Borrelli and Incotex make jeans that are skinnier than most SW&D brands. If there's any difference between the MC and SW&D aesthetics it would be that MC favors more vintage/faded looking jeans and SW&D likes raw or contrast faded jeans, but even that is not really true.
I don't even know what the historical reference point is for wide leg openings on jeans. 19th century miners? 1990s hip hop? Dads and IT professionals (or what you refer to as "work casual")?
I never said anything anywhere about MC "requiring" wide leg jeans. My point was that the older MC crowd typically doesn't wear jeans as narrow as SW&D. If you think the 1940s-1970s were "very slim", then it shows how much you venture over to SW&D or are familiar with current denim trends. I would LOVE to see evidence of where you came up with Borrelli and Incotex making jeans that are skinnier than "most SW&D brands." Name your "most SW&D brands," please. As skinny, perhaps, but what brands like those make isn't necessarily what is worn or favored on here.

Frankly, it's absurd, although not the least bit surprising given my routine experience of denim knowledge by the average MCer, that you make such claims and feel that you do so from a source of current information than opinion. I think you need to go back and do some research, maybe even define what you consider to be "wide leg" or "very slim" or "most" and enlighten us all.
post #1345 of 1451
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post #1346 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

I would certainly hope so because that's the very definition of a straight fit jean. The problem is that within the SW&D community, describing something as a "straight fit" would imply that it isn't slim. 1947 isn't "very slim" by any stretch of the SW&D imagination. If anything, they're a standard straight fit with a slight taper. 8.75" cuffs on a 32, personally, are repro territory and would be considered by most on SW&D as "wide leg."
I'd also like to know where you get the idea that "many" tapered jeans are relaxed. If they are, then they're not a traditional tapered pair in the sense that they're slim throughout with a taper. Instead, what you're describing is a carrot, or "anti" fit (relaxed thighs, tapered hem) which is less common. I could point you to links all day that showcase the difference. The point is, many brands that are patronized by SW&D use the "tapered" description in their line to denote slim or skinny jeans. Typically, this will mean that they have taken their "slim" pair and merely tapered it or slimmed down the measurements further overall. A basic mall brand like Unbranded is a good example of this. Many brands on Self Edge are also good examples of this.
I never said anything anywhere about MC "requiring" wide leg jeans. My point was that the older MC crowd typically doesn't wear jeans as narrow as SW&D. If you think the 1940s-1970s were "very slim", then it shows how much you venture over to SW&D or are familiar with current denim trends. I would LOVE to see evidence of where you came up with Borrelli and Incotex making jeans that are skinnier than "most SW&D brands." Name your "most SW&D brands," please. As skinny, perhaps, but what brands like those make isn't necessarily what is worn or favored on here.
Frankly, it's absurd, although not the least bit surprising given my routine experience of denim knowledge by the average MCer, that you make such claims and feel that you do so from a source of current information than opinion. I think you need to go back and do some research, maybe even define what you consider to be "wide leg" or "very slim" or "most" and enlighten us all.

I understand the terms you are talking about (carrot, anti fit, taper, etc). My point is only that "taper" can mean either narrow leg opening or wide thigh/knee. The bottom line is that the fit of jeans depends on the relationship between your body dimensions and the thigh/knee/ankle measurements. If you have a slim thighs for your waist and normal calves, then a "straight" fit sized down is going to be slimmer than a taper fit TTS because the thighs would be baggy otherwise.

I don't know why you're getting so aggressive with your jeans knowledge and dismissive of everyone else on this forum. I'm a MC poster but I have a wide collection of raw denim including Samurai (s710xx and s710bk), IH (Beatle Busters and Devil's fit), Eternal (811), APC (NS), Warehouse (660), and LVC (1966). My conclusion is that for my body type (relatively tall with wide hips, normal thighs, and narrow calves/ankle), a tapered fit with about an 8" - 8.25" leg opening on 35-36 waist gives the optimal silhouette. My favorite jeans are Samurai s710xx and some APC new standards that I had tapered from the knee down. I've also tried Borelli and Incotex jeans and trust me they about as skinny as Dior 19cm or APC PS.
post #1347 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


I don't know why you're getting so aggressive with your jeans knowledge and dismissive of everyone else on this forum.

Whodini is probably the most knowledgeable member on denim. Runs the pinned thread on SW&D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

C'mon, seriously? I just picked a pair at random that had those specs. A lot of the jeans I own are very similar and are in no way skinny, but have at it, hoss: http://shop.imogeneandwillie.com/collections/mens/products/willie-rigid


Those do look awkwardly tight in the thighs and seat.
post #1348 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Whodini is probably the most knowledgeable member on denim. Runs the pinned thread on SW&D.
Those do look awkwardly tight in the thighs and seat.

What makes one knowledgeable? Owning lots of jeans and spending a lot of time on superdenim? A lot of us have done that. It's really not rocket science. At least the fit aspect; there's a lot to learn about materials I guess.
post #1349 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

I understand the terms you are talking about (carrot, anti fit, taper, etc). My point is only that "taper" can mean either narrow leg opening or wide thigh/knee.

What does that even mean? If you're wondering why I'm "aggressive" it's because stuff like this is coming off as trolling, especially when you don't bother to answer any of my requests or correct yourself or your generalizations. Maybe you're just not that articulate, or maybe I'm just that simple, but when a brand describes their jeans as being "tapered," by definition they're talking about the cuff being of smaller measurement across than the knee. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

The rest about having "slim thighs for your waist" and "normal calves?" What are normal calves? What are slim thighs? What does any of that have to do with whether or not a pair is tapered? And how does sizing down fit into any of this?

I think you and I are on far different planets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Those do look awkwardly tight in the thighs and seat.
People who make those jeans and people who wear those jeans might want to have a word with you. What isn't "awkwardly tight" for you? And how would you know that the person wearing those jeans isn't comfortable? I'm being completely serious. Pull up iconic photos of people in jeans from the 60s/70s/80s and you'll see the same fits.
post #1350 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

People who make those jeans and people who wear those jeans might want to have a word with you. What isn't "awkwardly tight" for you? And how would you know that the person wearing those jeans isn't comfortable? I'm being completely serious. Pull up iconic photos of people in jeans from the 60s/70s/80s and you'll see the same fits.

I stand by my comment. Needs more room in the seat and thigh.

I will not buy that pair of jeans, they don't need to have a word with me.

Looks like:

jennifer-lopez004.jpg
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