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Denim 101 for Men's Clothing - Page 83

post #1231 of 1451
Rag & Bone is decent. Their denim program has constantly (d)evolved over the past few years; they've gone from North Carolina->NYC->LA, changed their fits, changed their denim (from US-made Cone to Japanese), had their lead denim guy walk out, etc. They were never really "geek worthy," but they did become known for making some polished designer jeans with great denim while everyone else was fairly rugged. They're still well-made and if you ever look at pair first-hand you'll notice that they're almost detailed like trousers with a cotton waistband. One constant complaint has been the long, low back pockets. I can live with it on the pairs I own but I understand why it'd get old for some. Like Time wrote, they've changed their denim program to be more mainstream and price competitive (they used to be consistently in the $250+ range for their better stuff) while the rest of their line remains fairly expensive. The irony, however, is that they started off as a jeans company that revived an old Levi's factory in NC. You could argue that once they started getting into a full collection their jeans took an immediate back seat, which is unfortunate. I'd put Acne in the "Nudie" category of paying a premium for fit over denim.
post #1232 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
Rag & Bone is decent. Their denim program has constantly (d)evolved over the past few years; they've gone from North Carolina->NYC->LA, changed their fits, changed their denim (from US-made Cone to Japanese), had their lead denim guy walk out, etc. They were never really "geek worthy," but they did become known for making some polished designer jeans with great denim while everyone else was fairly rugged. They're still well-made and if you ever look at pair first-hand you'll notice that they're almost detailed like trousers with a cotton waistband. One constant complaint has been the long, low back pockets. I can live with it on the pairs I own but I understand why it'd get old for some.

Like Time wrote, they've changed their denim program to be more mainstream and price competitive (they used to be consistently in the $250+ range for their better stuff) while the rest of their line remains fairly expensive. The irony, however, is that they started off as a jeans company that revived an old Levi's factory in NC. You could argue that once they started getting into a full collection their jeans took an immediate back seat, which is unfortunate.

I'd put Acne in the "Nudie" category of paying a premium for fit over denim.

If you look at the newer RB stuff (marked with an "x"), among the details you're losing are the cotton waistband and the hidden back pocket rivets. I also don't think they have the same kind of double layer pocket reinforcements the originals did (for front and back). However the quality and complexity of the denim is still there. The pockets have also gotten a bit shorter and less oddly shaped. To illustrate this:

This is one of the pairs I got:

http://www.rag-bone.com/RB15X__Raw/p...29/p/1980.html

While this pair is closer to their "original" style (though the back patch is new):

http://www.rag-bone.com/RB15__Indigo...29/p/1385.html

Notice the difference in pockets and, from the side views, the fact that the "x" has no cotton waistband while the other does.

As for Acne, I'm not disagreeing, though I think they are less gimmicky (without that stupid ass bright stitching on the back pockets) and are more stylistically elevated, given Acne's place in the fashion/style world vs. Nudie. The jeans strike me almost as a poor man's Dior Homme jean.
post #1233 of 1451
I've never really paid attention to the "x" category because they've done washes with the non-x stuff and they've even used corduroy under the same model number. I see now what you mean about the lack of cotton waist band but the back pocket rivets weren't typically (if ever) available on the non-x line (none of my jeans over the past few years have hidden rivets.) What's odd is that the X and regular line are currently priced the same. I wonder if that's to change because it doesn't make much sense. Again to repeat, my comparison of Acne to Nudie was in that they were similarly priced and both focused more on fit than the denim itself. Same can be said about APC even if the denim is arguably better than both.
post #1234 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
I've never really paid attention to the "x" category because they've done washes with the non-x stuff and they've even used corduroy under the same model number. I see now what you mean about the lack of cotton waist band but the back pocket rivets weren't typically (if ever) available on the non-x line (none of my jeans over the past few years have hidden rivets.)

What's odd is that the X and regular line are currently priced the same. I wonder if that's to change because it doesn't make much sense.


Those non-x jeans I linked are the first non-x I've seen under $200. The fit is different too. Hidden rivets had been hit or miss on the regular line for a few years but were never on the x line. The back pocket rivets were probably the first thing to go when the prices went down a bit a couple years ago (to the sub-$250 but $200+ range). The only other non-x pair currently on the RB website is the "RB15 Heritage" priced at almost $300.

Based on my experience with both, the x jeans feel like they are based on Theory's jean cuts, but made in the USA at a higher construction standard and from better materials. They definitely have less of the "vintage Levi's" fit than the original styles.

I'd say that the current x line is about the best quality jeans produced by an American "fashion" brand for under $200, while the regular line is but a shadow of the original Rag & Bone jeans produced around '04/'05. Even these now lack the hidden rivets and pocket reinforcements (check the insides of the front and back pockets, there's an extra cotton layer on the older ones to stop potential poke-throughs). I'll personally go with the x line because I find the fit superior and the overall jean to be more in line with what I'm buying today.
post #1235 of 1451
That's a shame about the program but it doesn't surprise me considering the other changes I mentioned. Few brands do full or half-lined back pockets anymore. While they're probably some of the best "fashion" jeans you can get at under $200, there are a lot of jeans brands in that price range that can compete. And my argument has been that if RRL is $230 retail, it's a bargain in comparison.
post #1236 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOBD View Post
You're a great help, whodini. But I think I can't see the wood from the trees anymore... So many options.

Result of some quick observations: Lee and Edwin look decent, but the pockets are too long and low; I don't like the look and I find them impractical because my wallet sits too low in them.

I didn't remember the names you posted, but while browsing the Tenue de Nîmes site, my eyes fell on Momotaro. When I read your post back, I saw the name and your "verdict". Those look very nice indeed, but I don't like the price... Same (and worse) goes for PRPS, if I'm not mistaken. Frans Boone (where I buy my suits) sells them. He also sells Baldwin; not too cheap either.

Do you know Norse Projects?

On the one hand my wishes are simple: basically APC NS fit and styling with a smaller waist and a bit more room in the thighs, and perhaps in a better/more interesting fabric. Price: €100-€150 for now. On the other hand, those seem quite hard to find...

Still a lot of homework for me to do, I guess. Or better: shopwork (and I hate shopping).

My 2 cents

Momotaros are great jeans, the premium they command over APC is more than justified. I was blown away by the detailing and the denim. They are 285 USD shipped from Blue Owl.
post #1237 of 1451
Is this is all "101" knowledge - entry-level survey course? Just scratching the surface and mentioning the existence of the most important stuff? If so, that's a pretty scary notion.
post #1238 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
That's a shame about the program but it doesn't surprise me considering the other changes I mentioned.

Few brands do full or half-lined back pockets anymore.

While they're probably some of the best "fashion" jeans you can get at under $200, there are a lot of jeans brands in that price range that can compete. And my argument has been that if RRL is $230 retail, it's a bargain in comparison.

Yea, from what I've seen the RRL stuff is better made. The RB style suits me more, but then again I'm a jeans w/sport coat kind of guy (in situations where others would be more formally dressed), and I prefer RB's slightly less rugged look for its denim these days.
post #1239 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmolken View Post
Is this is all "101" knowledge - entry-level survey course? Just scratching the surface and mentioning the existence of the most important stuff? If so, that's a pretty scary notion.
No, the title is a bit misleading. I'd be happy to point you to where you can read about the basics. I meant this as more of a Q&A for MC readers at all denim-interest levels. Time, I agree. While a "dressy" pair of jeans is kind of ridiculous, that's exactly how and when I wear my r&b denim. I just preferred them back when the denim wasn't nearly as streaky because it tends to pop more than I'd like.
post #1240 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post
I'm familiar with Norse as I've gotten into Danish brands over the past year or so. The problem is that they belong in the same class as APC: I'm sure they're fine and they're a step up from the ordinary crap, but they're still a clothing company offering a pair of jeans rather than a jeans company offering a pair of jeans.

With your budget in mind, it looks like you can go a few routes: you can either continue to buy APC and brands like APC, you can deal hunt on ebay with a specific company in mind, or you can save up and bite the bullet.

If you can check out some of the companies I'm recommending, it'd be a lot easier for you to understand the difference in price as well as to compare to your APCs.

To clarify, though, there's nothing wrong with APC and especially being in Europe I can understand how much easier and cheaper it could be to take that route. My point is more that there are other, prettier, fish swimming in the same pond so it may benefit you to look at the other options first.


Thanks, makes sense. I think for now the APC route is my route. Deal hunting is not my thing. I think I might try Norse, though I understand your point about a clothing company offering a pair of jeans (which I didn't know). I will look out for the brands you've mentioned though in "real stores".



Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_del View Post
My 2 cents

Momotaros are great jeans, the premium they command over APC is more than justified. I was blown away by the detailing and the denim. They are 285 USD shipped from Blue Owl.

Thanks, aj_del. That's not bad: just over €200,-, but what about taxes and stuff? I don't like to order things from the US, because I don't know what I'm going to pay beforehand.
post #1241 of 1451
I have never had to pay duty on all the jeans I have got from Selfedge or Blue in Green. Do note that while international shipping is included in Selfedge's and Blue Owl's prices, it is additional in the case of Blue in Green. ANother good options is LVC 1947, which can be had for sale from Oi Polloi during their sales
post #1242 of 1451
Oki Ni has some good denim on sale now, too.
post #1243 of 1451
Whodini, thanks for the posts. You bring a lot of great knowledge to the thread.

I tend to prefer straight leg jeans with more room in the thighs and moderate rise. Can you think of any other jeans that fit like these ? (I own one of each)

-KMW 2010 (I think this model has been replaced by the 1950?)
-Sugar Cane 1947
-Flathead "straight" cut
post #1244 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd617 View Post

Whodini, thanks for the posts. You bring a lot of great knowledge to the thread.

I tend to prefer straight leg jeans with more room in the thighs and moderate rise. Can you think of any other jeans that fit like these ?
Thanks for the words. It's good to know I'm having a positive effect and hopefully changing some minds (or unfortunately opening some wallets.)

The good news is that those jeans have a fairly standard repro fit; the bad news is that just about every single denim brand does a repro fit.

You've got a pretty good collection going, is there anything you feel like you'd want to try? Maybe get into a heavier-ounce pair from Iron Heart? Get into something American from Glory/Baldwin/Raleigh/etc?

You could get into Studio D'Artisan, Eternal, Denime, etc. but while they're different companies, I tend to put them in a similar boat unless they have a special model because the denim and cuts are fairly similar.

Or if you wanted to get away from that scene you could try RRL's Straight Fit.
post #1245 of 1451
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmolkenView Post
Is this is all "101" knowledge - entry-level survey course? Just scratching the surface and mentioning the existence of the most important stuff? If so, that's a pretty scary notion.
No, the title is a bit misleading. I'd be happy to point you to where you can read about the basics. I meant this as more of a Q&A for MC readers at all denim-interest levels.Time, I agree. While a "dressy" pair of jeans is kind of ridiculous, that's exactly how and when I wear my r&b denim. I just preferred them back when the denim wasn't nearly as streaky because it tends to pop more than I'd like.

Check out the current offerings again, both "x" and "non-x" as they really don't do the streaky denim anymore. I think that went away when they switched to the Japanese stuff vs. the US-made cloth. I say this because a) the timing makes sense and b) I can't remember which, but one of our affiliates did a version of their jeans with Cone Mills denim (from North Carolina, IIRC) which has the same streaky effect.

While I do agree that streakless is easier to dress up, I disagree that the notion of dressy jeans is an oxymoron: that may once have been the case but denim stylistically, denim has replaced more formal trousers in enough settings that the idea of "dress jeans" is pretty mainstream. While I like to "do my own thing" in terms of style, I wouldn't wear jeans to some of the places I choose to wear jeans to if it was simply deemed socially unacceptable. Some people say "the world has gone casual," which is true, but casual clothing has also gone elevated, so the two meet somewhere in the middle. I will now attempt not to dirty my $200 jeans as I climb carefully off of the soapbox.
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