No need to apologise for anything, mate. I'll ask him to clarify anyway if I get the chance.
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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1577post #23641 of 256126/10/16 at 8:25ampost #23642 of 256126/10/16 at 10:58amQuote:
Now theres a picture, i think ill stick to more muted colors lol. Going off topic here but i bought another sheepskin( i know, not really the weather for it) probably not massively like sheepskins back then but i like it [Img]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/EigAAOSwKfVXKcra/$_57.JPG [/img]post #23643 of 256126/10/16 at 5:18pmpost #23644 of 256126/10/16 at 11:11pmQuote:Originally Posted by Bela Kun
The ex-partner of one of the 'three gay skins' that appear in the famous photo series was also an original skinhead and used to live very close to where I'm now based in London. He says there was a big gay skinhead scene back in 1969-71, after which Bowie killed it off. They all knew each other, but of course they weren't open about it to outsiders. However, there was a reggae night in Camberwell, south London, that catered especially to them. It's worth noting they weren't 'fetish skins', but skinheads.
Being dead straight myself - and it's strange I even feel the need to emphasise this in 2016 - I still find it an interesting, because barely documented aspect of the original skinhead wave. I'll try and find out more.
For the time being, there's this:
Skinheads in Camberwell, south London in 1969. From left to right: Michael, Wolfgang, Peter & Terry.
Wolfgang was murdered in 1978 and his body was found in the Thames. Peter, too, was murdered in a homophobic attack after leaving the Manor House pub in July 1977. He was followed by two twenty year olds and beaten to death in the lock up garage area on Green Lanes near Manor House.
It just shows how attitudes and society has changed in just a generation. I suspect that once again our 'friends' in the media had a part to play in some of what went on as reports in the papers that skinheads enjoyed 'queer bashing' merely provoked copy-cat behaviour from others (see also: 'paki- bashing' and 'squadie - bashing'). Give something a name and it will catch on. The truth is, back in those days you hardly ever came across anyone who was openly gay (that term wasn't used at the time, if I remember correctly) so anyone who wanted to go 'queer bashing' would have had to make a big effort to even find a target.
M-o-M - Do you remember Jan who came to the meet-up in York? She was telling us about a lad she knew in her youth - a smart lad who wore a two-tone suit, very tough and 'macho' (to use her words) She admitted to having the real hots for him. Many years later she bumped into him and was shocked (and disappointed!) to learn that he was now gay. It begged the question - had he 'turned' gay, did he only realise in later life that he was gay or had he always been gay but, due to attitudes at the time, hid it in his youth. Hostility to homosexuals (and Asians) was not restricted to skinheads but prevalent in society as a whole - as you commented a couple of pages back, Paul, we were just ordinary people who weren't fundamentally different from other people in our communities.post #23645 of 256126/10/16 at 11:45pmpost #23646 of 256126/11/16 at 1:11ampost #23647 of 256126/11/16 at 1:17amQuote:Originally Posted by Clouseau
The all text is to be taken with a large pinch of salt, MoM, as you speak french you Should Read it. It is interesting as it is from 1969, but from a continental point of view, full of cliches of course... The funny thing is that the same kind of thing was written about second wave lads...
A whole shaker-full I would say. However, it was and is typical of stuff that was written about us back then, by people who knew sweet fcuk-all about us.
I remember a letter to IT while Yell was live, from some guy who was saying something like: "Like, the way I see it, man, is like the whole skinhead thing, yeah, is like guys with short hair digging chicks with short hair, so it's kinda like they're gay, like, you know, but they're like going with girls. It's like butch girls going with guys, and like there's a whole confused gay vibe going on, Like, far out, man." Of course I'm overdoing the hippie-speak, just to give you some idea, but I did roll my eyes when they showed me that letter.
Which brings me to the Great Gay Skinhead Debate...post #23648 of 256126/11/16 at 1:30amQuote:Originally Posted by roytonboy
M-o-M - Do you remember Jan who came to the meet-up in York? She was telling us about a lad she knew in her youth - a smart lad who wore a two-tone suit, very tough and 'macho' (to use her words) She admitted to having the real hots for him. Many years later she bumped into him and was shocked (and disappointed!) to learn that he was now gay. It begged the question - had he 'turned' gay, did he only realise in later life that he was gay or had he always been gay but, due to attitudes at the time, hid it in his youth. Hostility to homosexuals (and Asians) was not restricted to skinheads but prevalent in society as a whole - as you commented a couple of pages back, Paul, we were just ordinary people who weren't fundamentally different from other people in our communities.
Yes, I remember Jan very well, and I remember that story.
My old mate 'Cockney Bob' came out as gay several decades later, after marriage, children, etc. This was in more liberal times, and I just shrugged my shoulders and accepted it. I didn't quiz him about whether he had always known it, or felt that way, or whatever. I could speculate that he enjoyed the male cameraderie of late-mod/skinhead 'stag' groups because he had leanings that way; but then a lot of us enjoyed the same groups without such leanings.
I recall that when I was running Yell, a couple of guys from a pro-Gay magazine (which I keep thinking was Gay News, but it couldn't have been, because that was founded in 1972) got in touch and asked whether I and some of my mates would be prepared to be interviewed. I said I would meet them on my own to discuss it first of all, because there was a considerable amount of homophobic sentiment about in those days (I wouldn't have used the word 'homophobic' because it was never heard back then), and whatever they did they should not try to flirt with any of us! They said something to the effect "Don't worry, we're not 'raging queens'," and indeed they weren't, they were rather ordinary too. The interview never went ahead, but during our brief chat they did mention that they knew of more than one gay skinhead - I seem to recall them talking about one young lad who was very anxious about his sexuality becoming known.
Ordinariness. Yes, we were ordinary kids by-and-large. Our extra-ordinariness was there when we 'cut loose', I guess. But the everyday kind of thing - dressing up to go out, girls and boys dating, the dance-halls, the pubs, football, the odd ruck - all these were not new, not exclusive to our generation.post #23649 of 256126/11/16 at 2:13ampost #23650 of 256126/11/16 at 3:52amI'm currently busy 'transcribing'. I came cross a reference on this thread to this track someone found on a Japanese site (ignore the advert that comes up at the beginning). Most of the images are from the '69 era. However, it did contain an "Oh!" moment for me, and here's why:
We discussed the 'skinhead' episode in Inspector George Gently, and how the 'skinheads' portrayed were just totally wrong for 1969. One of the 'wrong' items was blokes drinking direct from beer bottles - not done, most bottle crates were kept in the pub yard where rats could piss on them! However in the Japanese clip, at about 2:07, the kids are sucking out of bottles, though these look more like Pepsi. Interesting.
I was watching the Inspector GG episode with Mrs Mystery, and I had just said to her "The trouble with Sten guns is that they used to jam," when the Sten the skinhead was holding jammed and blew up in his face. I'm no good with lottery numbers, though.
The Sten gun - an essential piece of original skinhead kit, of course. I never went out without mine!post #23651 of 256126/11/16 at 5:07am^ didn't the Coca Cola adverts of the time feature lots of drinking out of bottles? I also seem to remember beer bottles looking fairly rough from reuse, a bit of a 'ground glass' effect, not something that you would want to put to your mouth. Also, in a bottle you don't get the head and all that, the bit that my dad would let me drink!
Edited by covskin - 6/11/16 at 5:23ampost #23652 of 256126/12/16 at 5:00ampost #23653 of 256126/12/16 at 6:51ampost #23654 of 256126/12/16 at 10:41amThat brings back memories. I don't recall them in pubs, more social clubs and holiday camp bars.
My first holiday with my mates was in a caravan park in Selsey. There was a cavernous ballroom, which supplied Canada Dry trays.
One night, the compete tried to develop the party spirit by getting half the hall to make as much noise as possible to the tune of pack up your troubles in an old kit bag, whilst the other side of the room were encouraged to make maximum din to its a long way to Tiperarry.
My mate Peter was banging a light ale bottle against a Canada Dry tray, whilst I was clanging together 2 coke bottles; we were wrecked having had about 3 pints, as happened when you first start drinking...
I was getting well carried away....looked down to see only had the bottle necks left.
Happy days indeedpost #23655 of 256126/12/16 at 5:37pm
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