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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1576

post #23626 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post

Christ-on-a-bike! You know, throughout the very short 'era' I saw some shite written about us, but that takes the holy biscuit!

It seems to me that no one could actually handle the fact that, by and large, we were ordinary!

The all text is to be taken with a large pinch of salt, MoM, as you speak french you Should Read it. It is interesting as it is from 1969, but from a continental point of view, full of cliches of course... The funny thing is that the same kind of thing was written about second wave lads...
post #23627 of 24858

The ex-partner of one of the 'three gay skins' that appear in the famous photo series was also an original skinhead and used to live very close to where I'm now based in London. He says there was a big gay skinhead scene back in 1969-71, after which Bowie killed it off. They all knew each other, but of course they weren't open about it to outsiders. However, there was a reggae night in Camberwell, south London, that catered especially to them. It's worth noting they weren't 'fetish skins', but skinheads.

 

Being dead straight myself - and it's strange I even feel the need to emphasise this in 2016 - I still find it an interesting, because barely documented aspect of the original skinhead wave. I'll try and find out more.

 

For the time being, there's this: 

 

Skinheads in Camberwell, south London in 1969. From left to right: Michael, Wolfgang, Peter & Terry.

Wolfgang was murdered in 1978 and his body was found in the Thames. Peter, too, was murdered in a homophobic attack after leaving the Manor House pub in July 1977. He was followed by two twenty year olds and beaten to death in the lock up garage area on Green Lanes near Manor House.
 

 


Edited by Bela Kun - 6/10/16 at 1:52am
post #23628 of 24858

PS - I sent this finding to MoM a couple of months back, but he was wary the picture would revive the Great Denim Jacket Debate. Sorry MoM! :D 

post #23629 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bela Kun View Post

The ex-partner of one of the 'three gay skins' that appear in the famous photo series was also an original skinhead and used to live very close to where I'm now based in London. He says there was a big gay skinhead scene back in 1969-71, after which Bowie killed it off. They all knew each other, but of course they weren't open about it to outsiders. However, there was a reggae night in Camberwell, south London, that catered especially to them. It's worth noting they weren't 'fetish skins', but skinheads.

This is really interesting. In the novel 'Children of the Sun' by Max Schaefer there's a bit where they talk about a gay skinhead night taking place in the late 60s. I just assumed that this was revisionist fantasy, but as everything else in the novel is very well-researched, so perhaps its true.
post #23630 of 24858

Bela Kun posts "He says there was a big gay skinhead scene back in 1969-71, after which Bowie killed it off." 

 

Although Bowie's influence spread far and wide, I din't think he ""killed off" the mainstream skinhead scene, it was already over when Bowie hit the mainstream - I'm no expert but would say his performance on "Lift Off WIth Ayesha" was the start of his ascendancy. Kids had already moved on by then.

 

As for any gay skinhead scene, for reasons I have already mentioned - national homophobia - I would have no idea.

post #23631 of 24858

Sure, I'm only reiterating the way he put it. Maybe he counts 'suedehead' and other styles leading up to 1972 as still somehow being part of the 'skinhead' period - i.e. a gradual development, and then, suddenly, a clean break with Bowie and glam rock.

 

Second possibility, the gay underground discovered Bowie a tad earlier than the mainstream, as sometimes happens. And in Bowie's case, for obvious reasons too. Didn't Bowie's mainstream success begin with Hunky Dory in 1971, though? And that's not counting Space Oddity.

 

I might just ask him to clarify next time we get a chance to talk.

post #23632 of 24858
I think it is a mistake to project the dreaded modern hatecrime of 'homophobiaaa' into the past. As I remember things, homosexuality didn't even register as a possibility with us. We were blissfully indifferent, not seething with some imaginary 'hate'. It was effeminacy not homosexuality that was the touchstone, and it received ridicule and derision not physical attack.
Edited by covskin - 6/10/16 at 7:01am
post #23633 of 24858

Fair enough, but there was enough of it around to kill people, including some of those seen in the photo. So... they might remember the period differently than you do.

post #23634 of 24858
Yes but isn't that just the law of big numbers and small numbers at work. If 1% of the population are in a 'homophobic rage' and 1% of the population are 'vicious homosexuals' then that is the result you might expect.

(I'm using equally pejorative language so nobody need get on any high horse thanks)
Edited by covskin - 6/10/16 at 7:28am
post #23635 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by covskin View Post

I think it is a mistake to project the dreaded modern hatecrime of 'homophobiaaa' into the past. As I remember things, homosexuality didn't even register as a possibility with us. We were blissfully indifferent, not seething with some imaginary 'hate'. It was effeminacy not homosexuality that was the touchstone, and it received ridicule and derision not physical attack.

Cottages were attacked as regular as 'Pakis ' mate .. sadly 

post #23636 of 24858

I find it likely that there was a hangover of 'general homophobia', as Natty Pinstripe put it, seeing as legalisation was a fairly recent thing, but that only a minority acted on it. Those who did probably had other issues as well - including not getting laid enough and needing to prove they weren't gay.

 

Then again, I can't be sure as I wasn't there.

post #23637 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinny legs View Post


I've no idea how prevalent the attacking of gays and Asians was back in the late 60s, but am reliably informed that on a local level the Wandsworth Skins were known for picking off queers as they were commonly called, on Putney Embankment at night.
As a side note, my wife's cousin- my wife's family are light skinned Anglo Indians, who grew up in a very rough South London district, and had it extremely tough from the locals- ie beaten regularly at school.
Cut a long story, aged 16 in 70 he became a skin, dyed his hair blonde, moved out of home and was arrested and imprisoned for p.ki bashing.
An extreme reaction to a very tough childhood

I remember some TV reported attacks on Homosexual haunts / cottages by Skinheads then it seemed to become 

me a trend like 'Paki bashing ' .. after the first wave of 'fashion skins ' i think a lot of bullys were attracted to the look , keeping a peaceful truce with the Jamaicans was for a lot of them not down to love of Reggae but not wanting to attack people who would fight back 

post #23638 of 24858

Covskin, in East London we were most definitely not "blissfully innocent" of homosexuality, "skinhead homosexuality" however would have to us, seemed somehow impossible. But from when we started taking Red Rover bus trips around London about age 9 or 10, we were warned and once we had visited the West End amusement arcades we were aware. I'm not trying to pick a disagreement with anyone on this issue, it's not even of particular interest to me - but I am trying to offer one man's honest perspective.

post #23639 of 24858

"keeping a peaceful truce with the Jamaicans was for a lot of them not down to love of Reggae but not wanting to attack people who would fight back" . On the money with that comment flyfronted. 

post #23640 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bela Kun View Post
 

Sure, I'm only reiterating the way he put it. Maybe he counts 'suedehead' and other styles leading up to 1972 as still somehow being part of the 'skinhead' period - i.e. a gradual development, and then, suddenly, a clean break with Bowie and glam rock.

 

Second possibility, the gay underground discovered Bowie a tad earlier than the mainstream, as sometimes happens. And in Bowie's case, for obvious reasons too. Didn't Bowie's mainstream success begin with Hunky Dory in 1971, though? And that's not counting Space Oddity.

 

I might just ask him to clarify next time we get a chance to talk.


Never meant to imply that it was your opinion or your  words Bela and I apologise if it came off that way.

As for Bowie - I'm thinking about when he became popular with school kids - that wasn't until Ziggy, kicking off with "Starman" (I think ?). Older kids who worked or were students may have been hip to "Hunky Dory", but "Space Oddity" was looked back upon as a novelty record until Bowie became a star. Also the first school kids that were into Ziggy were T.Rex fans. In full disclosure I didn't buy a Bowie Lp until "Young Americans" but I had friends who had "Ziggy "or "Alladin Sane" and some both.

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