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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1555

post #23311 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botolph View Post


Good observation as always sir Yankmod, however Brooks Brothers(original "polo" button-down debuting around 1900-'02) , J. Press, Gant, and other shops were purveyors of a cohesive and established "Ivy League look" for many decades before Pendleton's contribution to it. Granted it started as the preferred dress of the patrician, blue-blooded, old money folk... But it trickled "up" to poor and working class folk like my Grandfather's generation(born in 1920).
It seems like that look took hold of Joe Public in a similar way to how it, mod, etc., influenced skinhead-- albeit at a snail's pace and not over the spam of a couple years. Probably because in America it started with conservative adults copying younger people(or continuing to dress casually in their 3/2 roll jackets, knit or repp ties, etc) as opposed to in Britain where it was a youth cult's ever-changing and fickle fashion.

Yes the Ivy shops existed prior to Pendleton but,they were out of reach to the average American who didn't go to Prep School and then on to an Ivy colleges.Pendleton made it affordable to the Masses,the Peasantry.

post #23312 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by covskin View Post


But harrington is just a name applied to something with an earlier origin. Black American roots my arse, what about Kraftwerk? Look for an origin and you will always find an earlier one. Where someone chooses to stop in this regress says more about them than what they are describing.

There are no origins, just influences, and those influences are immediate not sustained.

So the kids buying lobber at THE IVY shop didnt know what Ivy was and it wasnt Black Detroit that created Techno .. ok feller you carry on im ooot .

post #23313 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

 

Was Rodney Harrington an 'Ivy League' student? If so, at which college?

 

I would have thought that the Harrington jacket proves my point.

 

 

By the mid '60's young Mods were getting their influences from what was available in the shops, what they saw on 'Ready, Steady, Go' and what the Who and the Small Faces were wearing.  The 'Harrington' jacket became popular because people had seen it on the television and thought it was a smart jacket, not because it was 'Ivy League' (hence the name). Their influence was the T.V. not the 'Ancient 8' colleges in North Eastern USA. (I read somewhere that college kids in America started wearing them because they had seen their dads wearing them to play golf, along with some other styles such as Shetland wool and Argyle - so who was influencing who?)

 

Do we think that Steve Marriott and Kenney Jones went searching London for Madras jackets because they had seen them on privileged students in the USA? Or is it more likely they went into a trendy shop in the West End and had them 'sold' to them because they were different and eye catching? Having been seen in them, did young Mods buy them because they were Ivy League or because the Small Faces, a Mod group, were wearing them and therefore they were the thing to be seen in?

 

Obviously we can go round and round discussing which came first the chicken or the egg - I don't dispute that some items of footwear and clothing had, at various times been worn on campuses in the USA, I wonder to what degree these were purely 'Ivy League'  and how influential that fact was. Whatever it was, as Clouseau has stated, it was but one of many.

 

I would have said that if anything, the adoption of any Ivy League clothing in Britain was influenced by a small number of retailers, rather than by the Ivy League style itself. Had John Simons decided to call his shop something else, we may not be having this discussion 45 years later! (Interesting though it is!)

 

Side question - was it only Chelsea hooligans who were wearing them?

No all the london clubs had skinhead gangs - we aint going to get on to a 'it wasnt a london creation ' are we ? 

post #23314 of 24873

Edited by covskin - 4/13/16 at 2:07pm
post #23315 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

INFLUENCES

 

Due to several mentions of 'influences' of late, I have been given some thought to the subject.

 

Suppose I saw a nice shirt in a shop and bought it. The following week-end I decided to wear it to the annual Food & Drink Festival, which is a big social event in our town. Whilst I was there an acquaintance of mine commented on the shirt and asked where I got it. Maybe someone else I didn't know also thought it was a nice shirt, he would look out for one. The following week my acquaintance bought a shirt in the same style, a colleague of his was similarly impressed when he wore it on a works night out. Two months later an article in a magazine showed the polo playing fraternity  in Buenos Aires wearing this very same style of shirt. Were I, my acquaintance or his colleague influenced by the social elite of Buenos Aires? The irony is, of course that after that magazine article had appeared, people would probably say to me, "Oh, that's one of those Argentinian shirts!"

 

And so on to Mod/Skinhead/Suedehead:

 

Many of us, I would imagine, like to think we are pretty decently turned out, have a interest in clothes and  in a particular style or we wouldn't be on this forum.  Due to this interest we like to look into the topic in a little more depth, much as we would with our other interests - sport, music etc. I think as a consequence we (I include myself) maybe look for things and give them a little more importance than they had at the time. 

 

In the very early days of Mod, probably even before the term was in common use, when people maybe referred to themselves as Modernists (Gil Evans says that she and Del called themselves 'Continentalists') modern style was hard to come by, people had to search for ideas and  inspiration - French films, Italian styling, American jazz musicians all became 'influences' in the true sense of the word. As much as anything people were looking for something new and different, to stand out. As the 1960's progressed things changed. The Beatles, swinging England, Carnaby Street, the Who and the Small Faces. Fashion and the term 'Mod', in it's widest sense,  had become more mainstream and accessible. Now it was astute clothing retailers who were deciding what items to stock and  anyone could go into a boutique and be sold stuff. "How about this shirt, sir, considered very chic in Paris at the moment", "These trousers are very in with Milan's scooterati" "What about this striking jacket, it's Ivy League style, from America." Smart young gentleman would buy said item, wear it and his impressed mates would go and buy something similar.

 

There has been lots of mention of the influence, for example, of 'Ivy League' on the style from Mod right through to Suedehead. It is true that some of the clothes we wore were also worn at certain times at Ivy League colleges but was it really an influence? We had quite a lengthy discussion on this topic with interesting input from a number of members from page 1254 onwards so I'm not going to repeat all of that, only to say that most of us don't truly understand what Ivy League style is - most of what we think of as 'Ivy League' was mainstream American wear, I watched 'American Graffiti' on DVD last week.

 

 Check BD, ankle length Sta-prest, loafers

 

The BDs even have a button at the back of the collar.

 

It is NOT Ivy League, these are American middle class high school kids in California, set in 1962. Yet these are a close approximation to what we were to wear 8 years later.

 

In truth hardly any of us knew what Ivy League was at the time - we certainly didn't know what Ivy League 'style' was or what it represented. 

 

In 1968 and 1969 cord and Denim Wrangler jackets were very popular in many areas - these were 'western' in appearance and the name 'Wrangler' certainly has that connotation, quite deliberately , I would suggest, and when you add in the Levis (or Wrangler Jeans) it is quite a 'Western' look but has anyone ever heard that the late Mod or Skinhead look was influenced by cowboys? (Ed. Vaughan has posted that there was a clothes shop in Manchester called 'The Western' in the mid '60s) I don't recall this ever being said - in fact I remember my Mum, on see my mate and I leaving the house in our Denim Levi Jackets and Jeans, saying " You look like a couple of convicts!" Funnily enough, we didn't feel we were influenced by the penal system either! Could it be that cowboys and anything 'western' was not considered cool? (Country and Western music - eugh!) so we didn't want that association?

 

Recent mention of Apollo astronauts pricked my interest as I don't recall them ever being mentioned in terms of style at the time - in fact I do remember our maths teacher the morning after the first moon landings asking the class if anyone had stayed up into the early hours to watch it. When only two people put their hands up he went mad, going on about young people today, how this was a momentous day in human history etc.etc. we just shrugged our shoulders - it was not as important to us as our own interests. On looking for pictures on Google, I have to say that I can't imagine for one minute that in our mid-teens we regarded these blokes as stylish icons, to be honest we would have regarded them as old blokes, more like our parents and some of our teachers. Crew cuts were regarded as old fashioned and 'square' to use the terminology of the age. What has happened is that we now view some of those photos through different eyes, NOW we can see that for older men some of those astronauts have a bit of style (they were younger then than many of us are now) NOW we recognise that some of the clothes were similar to what we might have worn at various stages but THEN our point of view would have been quite different.

 

I think this is part of the issue, looking back we see things in a different light, can recognise certain traits that were not apparent to us in our youth. The rather boring truth remains that for 99% of skinheads (probably 99.9%) their 'influences' were simply what they saw on other skinheads, initially this evolved from other Mods, eventually it mutated into Suedehead. This is why there are so many little idiosyncrasies in time and place - people just responded to what they saw and heard in their own locality - at their local football stadium, youth club or dance hall/Soul club. They neither knew nor cared particularly where those clothes originated. Unlike 'Mod' a large part of 'Skinhead' was to fit in, not look different from your peers and it would have been only a very small number of style leaders who may have been looking for different ideas of what to wear.


Excellent post, you've made a point which i tried to make ( badly i expect ) a while back, for those who've been here a while two names, Kevin Keegan and Bill Shankly

post #23316 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post
 

So the kids buying lobber at THE IVY shop didnt know what Ivy was and it wasnt Black Detroit that created Techno .. ok feller you carry on im ooot .

 

Certainly , EVERYTHING has an origin or a source , if one takes the time to look. It has become almost customary on this planet to forget, mask over or deny a source . .

 

If it wasn't for the Black people we would probably all be listening to white honky-tonk . .

post #23317 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post



John still bringing home the gear 

Been there, done that, bought the G9. biggrin.gif
post #23318 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsvs5 View Post

However big the influence,I would imagine that comparatively few shopped at The Ivy (though just as many probably claim too as those who went to Wigan !) Just as the majority of America was being outfitted in the image of Ivy at Sears & Penny's without ever knowing about "The Full Gant" up in preppy Kennedy country,and very few outside of a relatively small inner circle would have known of the shoebox at the bottom of Richmond Hill.

Just saying that I knew about it and went there. I tended to visit Brewer St more often. Even so, I didn't visit all that often - no money!
post #23319 of 24873
In the early 80s there was a brief fad for collegiate button up cardigans. Normally with a whopping great Y or H emblazoned, presumably in tribute to Yale and Harvard. Not unlike the stuff donned by Richie Cunningham and Co in Happy Days. Regarding the Ivy Shop in Richmond, I only went there twice before it closed in the mid 90s, and the proprietor- too young for Mr Simons- struck me as being something of a miserable sod. I think it's mentioned somewhere in the forum archives that they had little time for brousers
post #23320 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinny legs View Post

In the early 80s there was a brief fad for collegiate button up cardigans. Normally with a whopping great Y or H emblazoned, presumably in tribute to Yale and Harvard. Not unlike the stuff donned by Richie Cunningham and Co in Happy Days. Regarding the Ivy Shop in Richmond, I only went there twice before it closed in the mid 90s, and the proprietor- too young for Mr Simons- struck me as being something of a miserable sod. I think it's mentioned somewhere in the forum archives that they had little time for brousers

Simons has said he set up the Ivy and Squire for young 'executives ' - he wanted to create a market for Ivy league / casual wear but ended up being swamped by herberts . 

post #23321 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post
 

Simons has said he set up the Ivy and Squire for young 'executives ' - he wanted to create a market for Ivy league / casual wear but ended up being swamped by herberts . 

I shopped at the Squire shop in 69/70 and whenever I was there it was full of young sussed herberts from all over London. Not an exec. In sight. Simons didn't much like us but we put money in his tills. I knew about the Ivy League and made in USA carried a lot of status in my crowd. When we grew up and still used his shops he became a bit more friendly.

post #23322 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by covskin View Post


 Black American roots my arse, what about Kraftwerk? Look for an origin and you will always find an earlier one. Where someone chooses to stop in this regress says more about them than what they are describing

Steeling my Material Now? I went thru this Rant a while back. Without Kraftwerk there is NO Modern Dance Music(American OR European) European Eee Lectronic Dance Music became the Blueprint for Today's overwhelmingly Synthesized Pop/Dance music.Without Kraftwerk there is NO modern music.The DJ's in Hip Hop would still be spinning Bad Disco for the Backing Trax. That was an Appalling period,before the Hip Hop Folks heard Kraftwerk.I was there I saw the Whole Evolution of Modern Dance music. 

post #23323 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob the Badger View Post
 

I shopped at the Squire shop in 69/70 and whenever I was there it was full of young sussed herberts from all over London. Not an exec. In sight. Simons didn't much like us but we put money in his tills. I knew about the Ivy League and made in USA carried a lot of status in my crowd. When we grew up and still used his shops he became a bit more friendly.

Said it before but everyone i knew thought Ben Sherman was a American make and so more valid than Brutus . American jeans , Sta prest etc . 

Good news Baracuta has done a cheaper new Harrington for 2016 https://www.oipolloi.com/collections/baracuta/products/baracuta-garment-dyed-g9-jungle-ss16#product

post #23324 of 24873
60s, young executives, 'Squire'. I'm seeing a young aristo in his mews house 'pad', air hostess du jour descending the spiral staircase in nothing but a John Simons shirt as he pours himself another whisky from a chunky glass decanter. Close?
post #23325 of 24873

TOPPERS . Post Suedehead classics .

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