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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1554

post #23296 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post
 

The point with influences is most young kids in Manchester didnt know the 'Royals ' craze originated in a shop in Richmond 200 miles away that was set up to sell Ivy clothes to london executives not cockney herberts . Kids see someone else at school or down the shops in clobber and decide they want to look like them but the Button down collar shirt is Ivy , Sta prest are Ivy the Harrington is Ivy ..   by the time a 'look ' spreads out from a original core group and core shops into high st's and market snides the original source is lost and of no interest to these kids but the facts remain .

 

As I said:

 

"Now it was astute clothing retailers who were deciding what items to stock and anyone could go into a boutique and be sold stuff"

 

As you have written, the original source is lost. 

 

'Harringtons' were originally produced in the north west of England and worn as golf jackets - doesn't that then mean that north west golfers were an influence on skinhead?

 

I think we are all agreed that some of the clothes we wore were also worn by (or similar to)  Ivy Leaguers at various times, it the degree of that as an 'influence'  that I'm questioning. Whatever that influence was, we were unaware of it at the time.

post #23297 of 24875
Roytonboy I'm summising you didn't live that far away from me so can you tell me shops you used to buy your clothes from as I only remember a handful of shops in Manchester which sold mod clothes. What an excellent forum this is.
post #23298 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

 

As I said:

 

"Now it was astute clothing retailers who were deciding what items to stock and anyone could go into a boutique and be sold stuff"

 

As you have written, the original source is lost. 

 

'Harringtons' were originally produced in the north west of England and worn as golf jackets - doesn't that then mean that north west golfers were an influence on skinhead?

 

I think we are all agreed that some of the clothes we wore were also worn by (or similar to)  Ivy Leaguers at various times, it the degree of that as an 'influence'  that I'm questioning. Whatever that influence was, we were unaware of it at the time.

The 'HARRINGTON ' story proves the Ivy link . Rodney harrington from Peyton place was a Ivy / college kid who wore a 'harrington ' .The Ivy shop in Richmond and its sister shop in the west end decided to buy these in and called them 'Harrington's ' .. the inner circle of kids who shopped there made them cool and markets all over the country did cheap snides and the 'Harrington ' legend was born . Im certain the London working class kids who flocked to a shop called 'The Ivy shop ' realised the connection , i also agree by the time the 'Look ' spread to the provinces its original lineage was forgotten and they were just copying Chelsea hooligans they had seen down south .. its the same with music most kids dancing to Techno do not know ( or care ) the musics Black American roots - but those roots exist .

post #23299 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by yankmod View Post

It is NOT Ivy League, these are American middle class high school kids in California, set in 1962. Yet these are a close approximation to what we were to wear 8 years later.



 



In truth hardly any of us knew what Ivy League was at the time - we certainly didn't know what Ivy League 'style' was or what it represented.                                                                                      Nice One Roytonboy. Ivy League "Style" wasn't widely available in the USA until Pendleton in 1957.




Good observation as always sir Yankmod, however Brooks Brothers(original "polo" button-down debuting around 1900-'02) , J. Press, Gant, and other shops were purveyors of a cohesive and established "Ivy League look" for many decades before Pendleton's contribution to it. Granted it started as the preferred dress of the patrician, blue-blooded, old money folk... But it trickled "up" to poor and working class folk like my Grandfather's generation(born in 1920).
It seems like that look took hold of Joe Public in a similar way to how it, mod, etc., influenced skinhead-- albeit at a snail's pace and not over the spam of a couple years. Probably because in America it started with conservative adults copying younger people(or continuing to dress casually in their 3/2 roll jackets, knit or repp ties, etc) as opposed to in Britain where it was a youth cult's ever-changing and fickle fashion.
post #23300 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post

The 'HARRINGTON ' story proves the Ivy link . Rodney harrington from Peyton place was a Ivy / college kid who wore a 'harrington ' .The Ivy shop in Richmond and its sister shop in the west end decided to buy these in and called them 'Harrington's ' .. the inner circle of kids who shopped there made them cool and markets all over the country did cheap snides and the 'Harrington ' legend was born . Im certain the London working class kids who flocked to a shop called 'The Ivy shop ' realised the connection , i also agree by the time the 'Look ' spread to the provinces its original lineage was forgotten and they were just copying Chelsea hooligans they had seen down south .. its the same with music most kids dancing to Techno do not know ( or care ) the musics Black American roots - but those roots exist .

But harrington is just a name applied to something with an earlier origin. Black American roots my arse, what about Kraftwerk? Look for an origin and you will always find an earlier one. Where someone chooses to stop in this regress says more about them than what they are describing.

There are no origins, just influences, and those influences are immediate not sustained.
Edited by covskin - 4/13/16 at 7:18am
post #23301 of 24875

All this "influences" discussion is very interesting but at the same time i think the truth is, to quote Roytonboy :

 

'that for 99% of skinheads their 'influences' were simply what they saw on other skinheads, initially this evolved from other Mods, eventually it mutated into Suedehead. People just responded to what they saw and heard in their own locality - at their local football stadium, youth club or dance hall/Soul club. They neither knew or cared particularly where those clothes originated. Unlike 'Mod' a large part of 'Skinhead' was to fit in, not look different from your peers and it would have been only a very small number of style leaders who may have been looking for different ideas of what to wear.'

 

I don't really think that 'Ivy league' had much meaning for the majority of English (and Europeans) youths late 60s. And even if it was an influence, conscious or not, it was just one among others. Maybe the one we like to retain now, as it's probably the most stylish. We know for sure the J.Simons shops were very influential, but elitist too. They were very expensive.

 

But, FWIK, there were a lot of other influences:

 

Youth culture in a broad sense (but mod fashion in particular, this is maybe where we can place Ivy league: Button down shirts, Longwings, loafers, sta-prest, etc)

 

Labour (Grand dad vest, father's boots (a lot of stories of young uns wearing their father's work boots, among them the first DMs that were  - i think - mainly used by workers), Steel caps, jeans (well jeans fit in a lot of parts of the equation, like short hairs), Donkey jackets, etc)

 

Immigrant culture : Jamaican rudies and singers mostly (short trousers, shades, hats, etc)

 

Sports : football (scarves with team colors), tennis (Fred Perry, white at the beginning, then with 'football colors' on piping), Boxing (Lonsdale - i think it already existed in the 60s, even if it was seen a lot in the 80s, and after - for worse), Golf (Harrington - fits in the Ivy influence too)

 

Military (army boots, Jungle greens, MA-1, etc)

 

Astronaut (well at least the Astro boot ! Moonstomping anall that !)

 

All this 'influences' have been touched at one point on this thread. But the interesting thing is that by mixing them all you obtain the skinhead style, who had certainly a lot of influences but became a strong style of his own. 

post #23302 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post
 

The 'HARRINGTON ' story proves the Ivy link . Rodney harrington from Peyton place was a Ivy / college kid who wore a 'harrington ' .The Ivy shop in Richmond and its sister shop in the west end decided to buy these in and called them 'Harrington's ' .. the inner circle of kids who shopped there made them cool and markets all over the country did cheap snides and the 'Harrington ' legend was born . Im certain the London working class kids who flocked to a shop called 'The Ivy shop ' realised the connection , i also agree by the time the 'Look ' spread to the provinces its original lineage was forgotten and they were just copying Chelsea hooligans they had seen down south .. its the same with music most kids dancing to Techno do not know ( or care ) the musics Black American roots - but those roots exist .

 

Was Rodney Harrington an 'Ivy League' student? If so, at which college?

 

I would have thought that the Harrington jacket proves my point.

 

 

By the mid '60's young Mods were getting their influences from what was available in the shops, what they saw on 'Ready, Steady, Go' and what the Who and the Small Faces were wearing.  The 'Harrington' jacket became popular because people had seen it on the television and thought it was a smart jacket, not because it was 'Ivy League' (hence the name). Their influence was the T.V. not the 'Ancient 8' colleges in North Eastern USA. (I read somewhere that college kids in America started wearing them because they had seen their dads wearing them to play golf, along with some other styles such as Shetland wool and Argyle - so who was influencing who?)

 

Do we think that Steve Marriott and Kenney Jones went searching London for Madras jackets because they had seen them on privileged students in the USA? Or is it more likely they went into a trendy shop in the West End and had them 'sold' to them because they were different and eye catching? Having been seen in them, did young Mods buy them because they were Ivy League or because the Small Faces, a Mod group, were wearing them and therefore they were the thing to be seen in?

 

Obviously we can go round and round discussing which came first the chicken or the egg - I don't dispute that some items of footwear and clothing had, at various times been worn on campuses in the USA, I wonder to what degree these were purely 'Ivy League'  and how influential that fact was. Whatever it was, as Clouseau has stated, it was but one of many.

 

I would have said that if anything, the adoption of any Ivy League clothing in Britain was influenced by a small number of retailers, rather than by the Ivy League style itself. Had John Simons decided to call his shop something else, we may not be having this discussion 45 years later! (Interesting though it is!)

 

Side question - was it only Chelsea hooligans who were wearing them?


Edited by roytonboy - 4/13/16 at 7:24am
post #23303 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau View Post
 

 

 

All this 'influences' have been touched at one point on this thread. But the interesting thing is that by mixing them all you obtain the skinhead style, who had certainly a lot of influences but became a strong style of his own.

I think this is true for me and my mates. We drew on many influences without really knowing or caring about the exact origins.

 

I worked in a very traditional menswear shop at the time and that too informed and influenced my choices so that I happily mixed 'English Gent' (tailoring, classic v neck jumpers, non-BD shirts with double cuffs) with continental style (early Solatio shoes, colourful three button Smedley type tops), sportswear and workwear as we call them now (FP shirts, jeans) and American-influenced stuff (Harringtons, Royals, BDs all from JS shops). It was a Look we were after rather than seeking out an 'authentic' style in its own right.

 

I have learned so much more about the origins of what I have worn over the years from internet forums in retrospect. And I do believe that the pastime  of examining the ins and out of a duck’s arse when it comes to clothing is a relatively new one.

post #23304 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post
 

John still bringing home the gear

Any particular recommendations?

 

Last time I visited with the London Meet-up guys in November he had some great Tootal scarves.  I bought this one:

 

post #23305 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knightley View Post
 

I think this is true for me and my mates. We drew on many influences without really knowing or caring about the exact origins.

 

I worked in a very traditional menswear shop at the time and that too informed and influenced my choices so that I happily mixed 'English Gent' (tailoring, classic v neck jumpers, non-BD shirts with double cuffs) with continental style (early Solatio shoes, colourful three button Smedley type tops), sportswear and workwear as we call them now (FP shirts, jeans) and American-influenced stuff (Harringtons, Royals, BDs all from JS shops). It was a Look we were after rather than seeking out an 'authentic' style in its own right.

 

I have learned so much more about the origins of what I have worn over the years from internet forums in retrospect. And I do believe that the pastime  of examining the ins and out of a duck’s arse when it comes to clothing is a relatively new one.

 As they say of Jamaica - "from many, one."

post #23306 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton heath View Post

Roytonboy I'm summising you didn't live that far away from me so can you tell me shops you used to buy your clothes from as I only remember a handful of shops in Manchester which sold mod clothes. What an excellent forum this is.

 NH - Yes, as the name suggests, I'm originally from Royton, just up the road, 15 -20 minutes by number 24 or 90 bus (as it was in those days!)  

 

I never considered myself to be a Mod. Having said that I got my first item of late Mod/early Skinhead clothing from Lewis's in Manchester in 1967(which kind of underlines my statement about 'Mod' becoming mainstream!)

 

I bought Levi's from a tiny shop in an arcade in Rochdale, little more than a kiosk, really (there were two, on opposite sides of the arcade) I bought my first item of truly skinhead clothing there, a fair-isle sleeveless pullover. The first check BD shirt I bought I got from New Brown Street in Manchester city centre. New Brown Street was great - the buildings were painted in all sorts of bright patterns and music blared out of the shops, there was a real buzz about the place.  That was early in 1970. I went there for shirts, mainly. Two of the shops were called 'Justin's' and 'Ivor's'. (a couple of years later I first visited Carnaby Street and was so disappointed, very drab in comparison-of course, it was years past it's heyday) Around about 1971 New Brown Street was demolished and the shops moved to the new Oasis precinct, just off Market Street and we would shop there. The shopping bags had 'Stolen from Ivor's' written on them - very droll. By this stage, more shops in Oldham and Rochdale had caught on to the style and it was pretty easy to find stuff locally.

post #23307 of 24875

Gents, this week's Friday Challenge may be of interest for some of you...

 

http://www.styleforum.net/t/521580/friday-challenge-4-15-2016-the-20th-century-man

post #23308 of 24875
Funnily enough Roytonboy I worked at steeds hairdressers on new brown st around 1970, for me Lewis's or stone dri for Levi's or wranglers,and an excellent shop called warren Andrews on church st , I remember trying to get hold of a pair of white Levi staypress to no avail I had to get a friend of mine who lived in london (cockney red) to get them and post them to me ,but my point is for such a large city Manchester to me very few shops that catered for mod/skinhead .
post #23309 of 24875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton heath View Post

Funnily enough Roytonboy I worked at steeds hairdressers on new brown st around 1970, for me Lewis's or stone dri for Levi's or wranglers,and an excellent shop called warren Andrews on church st , I remember trying to get hold of a pair of white Levi staypress to no avail I had to get a friend of mine who lived in london (cockney red) to get them and post them to me ,but my point is for such a large city Manchester to me had very few shops that catered for mod/skinhead .
post #23310 of 24875

However big the influence,I would imagine that comparatively few shopped at The Ivy (though just as many probably claim too as those who went to Wigan !) Just as the majority of America was being outfitted in the image of Ivy at Sears & Penny's without ever knowing about "The Full Gant" up in preppy Kennedy country,and very few outside of a relatively small inner circle would have known of the shoebox at the bottom of Richmond Hill.

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