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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1546

post #23176 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by con man View Post


I think it is just a fantasy of early Skinheads to correlate themselves with Mods.........
Yes, later Mods (tickets) say after 62/64, definetly......
but not the first Mods.

I'm nearly 66 now, so I was in my teens in the 1960s. I don't see my own teenage tribal (for want of a better word) affiliation going back to the earliest Mods, because by the time anyone had heard about Mods in the bit of 'the North' where I was, it was already a big thing down South - seaside rucks and so on - already well removed from the first 'Modernists'. The first Mods I actually knew were mates of my mate next door - I've told this story before. He was about a year older than me, his mates were about the same and older. I was about 14 and I went to a couple of their parties, got rather frozen out by the girls, felt a bit of a lemon, so although I felt that it would be cool to have a peer group like that, I kinda turned my back on that particular lot. When I was 16 I started going to local hops. That would have been in 1966-67, I would have been 16-going-on-17. Although Mods had been out of the news for some time, no moral panic in the newspapers about seaside riots, I found that Mods still existed. I quickly identified with them, spent a lot of time wangling an outfit to fit in with them, went to their Soul clubs, learned the dances, yadda yadda...

Then in 1968 I moved down to London, hung around with youngsters who looked most like I did, who dressed in an identifiably late Mod style. The story how the 1969 Skinhead look evolved from what we were already wearing is well documented. I know (of) people who had the look all the way through that era, shared many of the evolving Skinhead fashions, and still referred to themselves as Mods; I also knew kids who had looked like min-mods in 1968 and full-blown Skins by the end of 1969; I also knew kids who entered the skinhead crowd fresh.

No 'fantasy'. As it happened with me.
post #23177 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post


I'm nearly 66 now, so I was in my teens in the 1960s. I don't see my own teenage tribal (for want of a better word) affiliation going back to the earliest Mods, because by the time anyone had heard about Mods in the bit of 'the North' where I was, it was already a big thing down South - seaside rucks and so on - already well removed from the first 'Modernists'. The first Mods I actually knew were mates of my mate next door - I've told this story before. He was about a year older than me, his mates were about the same and older. I was about 14 and I went to a couple of their parties, got rather frozen out by the girls, felt a bit of a lemon, so although I felt that it would be cool to have a peer group like that, I kinda turned my back on that particular lot. When I was 16 I started going to local hops. That would have been in 1966-67, I would have been 16-going-on-17. Although Mods had been out of the news for some time, no moral panic in the newspapers about seaside riots, I found that Mods still existed. I quickly identified with them, spent a lot of time wangling an outfit to fit in with them, went to their Soul clubs, learned the dances, yadda yadda...

Then in 1968 I moved down to London, hung around with youngsters who looked most like I did, who dressed in an identifiably late Mod style. The story how the 1969 Skinhead look evolved from what we were already wearing is well documented. I know (of) people who had the look all the way through that era, shared many of the evolving Skinhead fashions, and still referred to themselves as Mods; I also knew kids who had looked like min-mods in 1968 and full-blown Skins by the end of 1969; I also knew kids who entered the skinhead crowd fresh.

No 'fantasy'. As it happened with me.

Half of 'Skinhead's ' clobber had come from the same source as 'Mod ' ie US Ivy league . A 16 year old in manchester doesnt need to know where his clobber originated from but Skinhead was without doubt just a continuation as was Soul boy as was casual ... every generation thinks they are the first and unique but when you look back you can see its all the same thing 

post #23178 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by con man View Post

If you were 18 and of Mod / Skinhead lineage, you would have been a Mod or Skinhead,
Where does soul boy or casual come into it?
It is possible and have seen it with my own eyes that some Skinheads, who were Skinheads for 5 minutes at that time would have become casuals, not because it was a generic follow on from Skinhead, but because they liked the football aggro side of things and you stood out like a sore thumb with a Skinhead.
The feeling of being a Skinhead is in your bones and blood it's not about what fashion is next, I know that sounds like a cliche, but it s true and to quote another cliche,
"it's about the passion and not the fashion"
And to me wearing trainers and track suits and golfing wear and having ridiculus wedge head hair cuts and mullets has nothing to do with Mod or Skinhead.
The truth is, if it weren't for the Skinheads of the 80's and the scootering fraternity, this forum would only have a few originals on here talking about the 60's early 70's. Nobody else would be interested.
Because those who were into it in the 80's and later. come on here to read the opinions and stories of the first Skinheads and value it,
If you go to any event nowadays that is Skinhead oriented, you will find it will be attended and organised by Mainly People who were Skinheads in the 80's along with a small measure of originals and youngsters.
What I will say, though is........
There are more turning up now, who are middle aged, lost their hair, decided to look back at a part of their youth and decided to buy cheap table cloth checked shirts, bright coloured braces, jeans , ox blood docs , red harringtons and dress up on a weekend.
Now I have no real problem with that, each to his own, who am I to critisise.
But I wouldn't mind betting that most of them, were those Skinheads who were Skinheads for 6 to 12 months ( 5 minutes ) in the late 70', early 80's and souled out ( do you see what I did there haha!!! ) and became casuals and soul boys.

The Skins of 1968 - 1970 were into it as a fashion . Every high st had a shop selling the gear it wasnt a sub cult it was the fashion by 71 it was dead . Middle aged blokes in DMs and Braces look as silly as Middle aged Casuals at the match . The Ivy League look however has endured and will never die and if a older chap wants to have a inch of red sock showing between his Aldens and strides then fair play those that know will know 

post #23179 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post

I'm nearly 66 now, so I was in my teens in the 1960s. I don't see my own teenage tribal (for want of a better word) affiliation going back to the earliest Mods, because by the time anyone had heard about Mods in the bit of 'the North' where I was, it was already a big thing down South - seaside rucks and so on - already well removed from the first 'Modernists'. The first Mods I actually knew were mates of my mate next door - I've told this story before. He was about a year older than me, his mates were about the same and older. I was about 14 and I went to a couple of their parties, got rather frozen out by the girls, felt a bit of a lemon, so although I felt that it would be cool to have a peer group like that, I kinda turned my back on that particular lot. When I was 16 I started going to local hops. That would have been in 1966-67, I would have been 16-going-on-17. Although Mods had been out of the news for some time, no moral panic in the newspapers about seaside riots, I found that Mods still existed. I quickly identified with them, spent a lot of time wangling an outfit to fit in with them, went to their Soul clubs, learned the dances, yadda yadda...

Then in 1968 I moved down to London, hung around with youngsters who looked most like I did, who dressed in an identifiably late Mod style. The story how the 1969 Skinhead look evolved from what we were already wearing is well documented. I know (of) people who had the look all the way through that era, shared many of the evolving Skinhead fashions, and still referred to themselves as Mods; I also knew kids who had looked like min-mods in 1968 and full-blown Skins by the end of 1969; I also knew kids who entered the skinhead crowd fresh.

No 'fantasy'. As it happened with me.

Wasn't meant to be a pop at any one,
What I meant was, I would imagine say by 1969 if the average age of a Skinhead was say 15/16,
I would again imagine, (obviously I was not there) that early Mods, proper Mods, those who were movers and shakers, not school kiddies, probably around 18 say in 1962, by the time it would have been 1969 they would have been in the early to mid 20 years and all those young Skinheads, would have probably just looked liked wannabes.
But those young Skinheads, might have aspired to be like the Mods," fantasy" was probably wrong wording.
A bit like original Skinheads who left it in 1970, look down their noses at later 70's Skinheads again just a few years later.
I would actually like to hear what early Mods did think of Skinheads.
post #23180 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post

The Skins of 1968 - 1970 were into it as a fashion . Every high st had a shop selling the gear it wasnt a sub cult it was the fashion by 71 it was dead . Middle aged blokes in DMs and Braces look as silly as Middle aged Casuals at the match . The Ivy League look however has endured and will never die and if a older chap wants to have a inch of red sock showing between his Aldens and strides then fair play those that know will know 


I can't disagree with any of that,
for a short period in 1979- 1981, the Skinhead look of the Two Tone kiddies was also fashionable and you could buy the stuff off the shelf.
But those of us, who were sad enough haha!!!, to carry on with it, it did become more of a, to coin another corny cliche. "A Way of Life "
And by the mid 80' s those of us who were still into, started to look back towards the original period and dropped Oi!
But the clothes were hard to come by, especially in places like where I'm from, charity and second shops weren't as prolific as now and no internet,
And no decent replica stuff.
If I could of got my hands on Brutus and decent Ben Sherman's etc in 1985, I would have worn them, believe me.
Obviously there were those who went down the political root, but we don't need to get into that.
post #23181 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfronted View Post

Half of 'Skinhead's ' clobber had come from the same source as 'Mod ' ie US Ivy league . A 16 year old in manchester doesnt need to know where his clobber originated from but Skinhead was without doubt just a continuation as was Soul boy as was casual ... every generation thinks they are the first and unique but when you look back you can see its all the same thing 

In the context of fashion, I see your point,
Early Mods and early casuals, would have sourced gear that wasn't worn by your everyday man on the street,
So in that sense there is a similarity.
But Brutus, army greens and hob nail boots are hardly high end fashion or expensive sportswear.
Instead of looking individual was more of a uniform.
And like you say in another comment, readily available off the shelf in any high street.
Those early Mods, it would have been a lifestyle thing....... music, fashion, attitude, coolness and one up man ship,
I guess the older Skinheads would have had that going on, but I also guess the Skinhead look is quite limiting.
And more than likely the fashion conscious amongst them, moved on pretty quickly, hence why it only lasted a couple of years or so.
But to go from, a very smart uniform look to long hair, flares and big fuck off collars etc, was some what of a mistake,
So if casual is a continuation of Skinhead, what happened in those intervening 8- 10 years?
post #23182 of 24873
Quote:
Originally Posted by con man View Post


In the context of fashion, I see your point,
Early Mods and early casuals, would have sourced gear that wasn't worn by your everyday man on the street,
So in that sense there is a similarity.
But Brutus, army greens and hob nail boots are hardly high end fashion or expensive sportswear.
Instead of looking individual was more of a uniform.
And like you say in another comment, readily available off the shelf in any high street.
Those early Mods, it would have been a lifestyle thing....... music, fashion, attitude, coolness and one up man ship,
I guess the older Skinheads would have had that going on, but I also guess the Skinhead look is quite limiting.
And more than likely the fashion conscious amongst them, moved on pretty quickly, hence why it only lasted a couple of years or so.

But to go from, a very smart uniform look to long hair, flares and big fuck off collars etc, was some what of a mistake,
So if casual is a continuation of Skinhead, what happened in those intervening 8- 10 years?

 

Here's my take on it .....

 

I'm slightly younger than M-o-M, being 61 so was 14 in 1969 when I first 'became' a skinhead, by which I mean I had the haircut. I was, however, already wearing many aspects of the style.  I'm not ashamed to say that I was very much a follower and not a leader. I think it is important to stress that everyone's experience was slightly different, for some it was a gradual process, evolving from late mod (or 'hard mod'), some saw it in the paper and jumped straight in copying what they saw there and for some it was just the latest fashion.

 

My own personal experience was this:

 

I would have been a mod if I had been older - when I first started to go to, and be influenced by, football in 1967 sharp dressers were still referred to as 'Mods'. (The term ' Mod' had by this stage come to be used for fashionable young people generally, not some style elite) I recently posted this photo of me in August 1968

 

Looking the smart young man about town (or at least trying to look the part - I was 13) Interestingly, I was already wearing a surfer jacket, jeans and brogues to football matches at this stage and was first involved in trouble at a game only a few short weeks later. None of us had heard the term 'skinhead' at that stage. My clothes style evolved during the following 12 months into what we would recognise as 'skinhead' months before I finally had the haircut in October 1969. Interestingly, it was only after the haircut that I considered myself to be a 'skinhead'. What were my influences? - for me, a combination of what I saw on the terraces at Manchester City and some local older lads who were in transition from late Mod to Skinhead.

 

With regard to the skinhead style being 'quite limiting' I can understand how that might be the perception as the image now is a very restricted one, but in reality at was constantly evolving. What I was wearing in late 1969 was not the same as I was wearing in late 1970.

 

 

 

(The older local lads previously mentioned never wore checked shirts - they were 18 and 19 by the time they became popular and had 'moved on'), by late 1971 my look had changed again but the changes were gradual, one item of clothing or footwear at a time. The changes were subtle and hardly noticed by outsiders, but very important to us. I have mentioned in a previous post how I find it odd that a certain snapshot in time has been accepted as THE skinhead look.

 

Incidentally, to me and many of my friends, it WAS a lifestyle thing, we took it all quite seriously - the clothes, being seen in the right places, football, soul clubs, the music.

 

I can see a thread from Mod to Skinhead to Suedehead  in that many of the attitudes were the same even though the clothes and aspects of style changed - no doubt people younger than me can see a link between Suedehead and Bootboy (or even  Northern Soul depending on location) and others, younger still see certain threads between other youth styles.

 

Why do people move on? At 19 years old, who wants to look like the local 15 year olds?  What 19 year old woman wants a boyfriend who looks (and acts) like someone who is still in school? Adulthood calls and most people hear. The nature of fashion is that it changes and each 'generation' of teenagers wants their own look, even though their backgrounds and attitudes may be pretty much the same.


Edited by roytonboy - 3/30/16 at 6:01am
post #23183 of 24873

Just to add my 2 cents...

 

Things were different from this side of the Channel...

There are rumors that sailors and lads working on the docks of Le Havre were the first french skinheads, late 60s. But there are no evidence.

Not impossible though as working on ships or a commercial port in business with England, they could have been exposed to 'the Look'.

 

The first french (2nd wave) skinheads were parisian commuters (who gathered in the city) and were former punks. Not my case. There were a lot of punks in my school, and TBH i didn't like them at all (well i would be hangin' around with some of them a few months later though)

In my case it's slightly different as i used to go to England each summer (my grandfather and father were respectively involved in the first and second WW, and wanted their grandchildren and children to speak English as they felt indebted to Englishmen and Americans). So the first skinheads i saw were English, and i first associated them with 2tone. I mainly listened to ska, and my 'look' was not too scruffy. I was 15 in 1980. The English 'clobber' was very difficult to find in France (not the American one), but that's another subject. The first lad to adopt the skinhead look in my school was Swiss, a good friend i knew since i was a small kid, and was very smart. I remember he had nice brogues, 8 holes oxblood DMs, a wooly hat... We were his followers. This lad's younger brother was a mod, they used to fight a lot together, and very badly. To be honest, i had no idea at the time that 'skinhead' was an old thing. I thought it was a totally new 80s thing ! Until my older brother (who was one of the 'Français de juillet' that M-O-M remembers, RIP) told me that the first skinheads appeared in England late 60s...

Having quite an aggressive look was a way to rebel i think, and let's face it, there was a little bit of fashion too. I stopped to dress as a skinhead in 1983-84 because things were beginning to be too political here, but as says Con 'we don't need to get into that', and i felt it was time to 'move on'.

So in my case, not 'a way of life', but something that left a lasting imprint on me, and 'the look' still influences me to this day, even if i try to keep it subtle.

 

@roytonboy Que le meilleur gagne  ;) 

 

Edition : at the time, i was inspired by the look of some bands members from The Specials, Dexys Midnight Runners (Searching for the young soul rebels), The Beat, Madness, amongst others...


Edited by Clouseau - 3/30/16 at 8:59pm
post #23184 of 24873
Really enjoying the last bit of banter. Just when you thought there was nothing left to say... Every generation has a cutting edge movement, or two, which is closely followed by a cartoon version of the "original." Some movements are more radical than others, perhaps due to current politics, economics, etc... Same shit. Different day. Some were followers. Some were leaders. A few lifers. Most just passing through. Plenty of fond memories. Unfortunately, coupla' phases I'd rather forget too!
post #23185 of 24873

 

Just to underline the train of thought of M-o-M and myself. Here is a picture of Mods in 1967 (apologies for the poor quality of the image) Not a big step from these lads to skinhead. (Yet certain aspects of style that Gil and Del Evans could have related to 4 or 5 years earlier)

 

 

 

AppleMark

 

 

Would the lad in the centre right have considered himself a mod or a skinhead? Note: he's not the only one wearing boots and turned up Levi's. (no date given... . possibly 1968? ) Similarly, not a big step from many of the photos in the Richard Barnes book 'Mods', mostly taken in 1964 and 1965.

 

 

 

and finally how I remember us looking in 1969.... (apologies for the poor quality) Note: Not a check in sight!

 

 

 

So not big steps but a gradual progression from 'Mod' to 'Skinhead' 

post #23186 of 24873

A previous submission of mine showing the progression from skinhead onwards - again, taken in isolation it is not so easy to see the connection but when the progression is shown, there is a slight change every 18 months or so and if you can spot the links you can follow the thread. No doubt those of you of more tender years can also make similar connections to later trends.  With regard to The Specials, it can be seen that they cherry picked from Mod, Skinhead and Suedehead to get their look.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

cernebbas - that's a fair observation and on this view I'm going to both agree and disagree with you! 

 

Firstly, As I stated in a previous post, there is a noticeable link through skinhead-suedehead-bootboy. If we arrange the following photographs in the following order. These are pretty much what I would describe as 'football terrace wear'.

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, lads did wear these clothes to the match and on the street)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This pretty much shows the progression.

 

Where I would disagree, however is that Mod-Skinhead-Suedehead was more than just wearing the clothes - it was a culture. Most of us who lived through it (and virtually all who have come to it in later times) have that culture As a consequence, if I meet a someone 4 or 5 years older than me who had been a mod, the chances are I have some things in common with that person, we can talk clothes, music, experiences and even scooters  (though I never had one). Similarly, if I meet someone who was a Suedehead but who may be 12-18 months younger than me the same would apply. As an example - a short story. Some months ago I was delivering a course in a local organisation. There was a woman on the course who clearly did not want to be there - her whole demeanor shouted negativity. Someone like that can really upset the dynamics of a group, particularly as I am an 'outsider' . I noticed, however, that she was wearing a scooter t-shirt, so I engaged her on the subject, told her that I used to be a skinhead and in no time at all we we talking clothes, boots, music etc. She was as good as gold afterwards and at the end of the day her evaluation said, "Really enjoyable day, great tutor!" It was nothing to do with the course!

 

 

post #23187 of 24873

I showed the original of the Clacton picture below to @Clouseau at the last meet-up in London.  I hadn't posted it here before due to the poor quality, but in the spirit of the current debate on the way the Look was moving on in the late 60s / early 70s I thought I would now.

 

You know that I live in Essex and in that period spent a lot of time at such places as Ilford Palais, hanging round the clubs of Soho and football terraces of Arsenal and West Ham.  I shopped at the Ivy Shop and Squire Shop from 1969.

 

I always wanted to be a mod but was really too young - only 13 in 1966.  By 1967 I was just starting to become a little better off with a paper round, occasional work in my mum's office and so on.  I got my first MTM suit in 1967 from John Collier and was starting to shop in Romford and the East End - moving on to the West End by 1968.  And going bespoke in about 1969!

 

I suppose I thought I was a mod even though my hair was getting shorter by 1967.

 

You've seen some of these before but for the debate on moving on (at least how it was for us):

 

1967 - Spring.  MTM suit, M&S v neck, white shirt (non BD) and striped silk tie.  Shortish hair.

 

 

Regrettably I still can't find any pics from 1968 / 69 but if I could they would reveal that I never really embraced the full-on skinhead style.  This is how we looked by 1970.

 

My mates at Clacton in Summer 1970.  Foreground - John Simons American checked BD, staprest, Royal Gibsons (can't see 'em but I recall them very well and always envied them).  Back - white Aertex crew neck t shirt, staprest, Royal Loafers (I think).  Hair getting longer.

 

 

Me and my girlfriend in October 1971 with the change to 'smooth' complete.  Take 6 white shirt, Quincy / Jones knitwear, John Simons trou, Loafers with woven vamp, probably Lotus. Hair as long as it got.

 

post #23188 of 24873

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by con man View Post


In the context of fashion, I see your point,
Early Mods and early casuals, would have sourced gear that wasn't worn by your everyday man on the street,
So in that sense there is a similarity.
But Brutus, army greens and hob nail boots are hardly high end fashion or expensive sportswear.
Instead of looking individual was more of a uniform.
And like you say in another comment, readily available off the shelf in any high street.
Those early Mods, it would have been a lifestyle thing....... music, fashion, attitude, coolness and one up man ship,
I guess the older Skinheads would have had that going on, but I also guess the Skinhead look is quite limiting.
And more than likely the fashion conscious amongst them, moved on pretty quickly, hence why it only lasted a couple of years or so.
But to go from, a very smart uniform look to long hair, flares and big fuck off collars etc, was some what of a mistake,
So if casual is a continuation of Skinhead, what happened in those intervening 8- 10 years?

The kids who were to young to be a Mod became skins - those to young ( Me ) to have been a OG skin became Soul Boys - by 77/ 79 Soul boys had split into various sub groups with those in inner london mixing Black styles and the London criminal look - that morphed into proto casual . Since Casual ground to a creative halt around 86 i have not seen anything new  that carried the ethos . Nowdays teenagers who dress like 'lads ' sport various looks all in one .. not unusual to see kids at the match in Mod / Skin Fred Perrys , 80's casual trainers and a Baracutta .. everything old has become heritage eh LOL 

I think that 'ONE UPMANSHIP ' is the thing that keeps a look creative . Once its gone it stagnates and you get a cartoon version of something that was once the coolest thing in town 

post #23189 of 24873
Nobody doubts, that Skinhead is the descendant of Mod,
And you can see a gradual evolution between the two,
But my point is the very early Mods were a completley different animal in the early 60''s to a Skinhead in 1970 and even if a lot of Skinheads called themselves Mods, I just wonder if the original Mods would have called those Skinheads "Mods"
I'm just not sure they would have.
But I guess I'm just repeating myself, so that's the last comment I will make on it, it is just my opinion that is all.
Personally, I have loved the Skinhead look for 36 years, hence why I'm on here.

The picture of The Mods with the lone Skinhead,
I first saw this photo in 1983 when I bought Nick Knights book,
It states in that book " Eary Skin with Mods April 1967 "
Where this info was gleened from and if it is true, " who knows"
I always thought he looked the smartest out of the bunch and
Was probably the trend setter out of them.

I'm still not convinced of the Skinhead to Casual timeline,
But again I'm just repeating myself, and it don't really matter, what I think!
But, I became a Skinhead because I liked the Skinhead look, because it was/ is a smart, hard look.
If I had wanted to look effeminate and run around in shiny track suits, I would have got my self a wedge head hair cut
and listened to funk or spandau ballet or franky goes to Hollywood or whatever crap, Soul boys and casuals, listened to.
Then I would have gone down that path.
Fortunately for me, I had better taste haha!!!
Edited by con man - 3/31/16 at 2:49pm
post #23190 of 24873
Those kids who were to young to be original Skinheads became Soul boys ?

This sounds to me like a crock of crap,
Surely those kids who by 77/79, who wanted to be a Skinhead, would have become a Skinhead, there were Skinheads who were into
Punk/ Sham 69 etc and there was the Mod revival at that time, I 'm sure some of them would have had the look of a Skinhead and
and then there was obviously 2tone.
Some of the 2tone bands members had been original Skinheads.

Seems to me, you were never a Mod, Skinhead, Suedehead, Boot Boy, Revival Mod, Second, third, fourth or how many other supposed
Waves of Skinhead there have been.

So that begs the question .........


What the hell are you doing on here haha!!!

Is it, just to take the piss out of second wave Skinheads, just because you didn't have the bottle to become one.?

Just saying!
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